Problem Crunch time! My case with ICMarkets

[Angus Walker]

Also, I would like to suggest you this website that was recommended to me by a journalist calledwww.tradeproofer.com. There, you can actually put your exact trade and the website will compare that to other brokers and then can tell you if the broker really "bucket shopped" (not sure if i can use that as a verb) you or not for THAT exact trade! Again, I'm not affiliated with them!

I've spoken with the Peter the founder of www.tradeproofer.com in the past and he gave us good feedback. I welcome any analysis of trades executed on an IC Markets account using trade proofer.

@angus: In my opinion, ICM (does) have the shittiest customer service in this area. In your arguments with Rahman (I get that now you guys are like enemy), your speech and tone are unacceptable and demeaning to some extent. If Rahman or any other customer has any issues with you, you should just take it nicely and work out a way to solve it.

I’ve been at IC Markets for five years and seen the company grow from 0 yards a month to over 80. I know the hard work that has gone into building the company so I find it hard to sit on the sidelines and read Rahman’s posts which I know to be incorrect, baseless and misleading.


For the most part I have been civil with Rahman and extended him the courtesy of proper explanations, constructive arguments and extensive amounts of data. I will do my best to improve my tone in the future.

One thing that bothers me is that why you would not post the chart for the exact time that this issue occurred. YOU STILL HAVE NOT!

I posted tick data for the time in question. This is the same data that was feed in to our platforms, so this should give everyone a good idea of our bid/ask prices at the time. This obviously isn't what you're after so what data do you want me to post?

Also, he had hundreds of open positions, why were not they closed one by one but all at the same time? Again, you might say the "market issue" but again, we need you to post the chart here to see.

Rahman had 60 open positions. They were all closed at the same time as his equity went negative. This is normal practice for any broker globally.


The tick data was supplied along with the corresponding margin level and net PnL so you can see how the wide spreads from the news caused the negative equity which lead to the immediate liquidation of all open positions.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/obxgvzlrbqgjvkq/Rahman USDCAD rates vs unrealised PnL.jpg?dl=0

> In regards to ICM is a true ECN broker or bucket shop arguments: I'd like to bring their own PDS doc into our attention:http://www.icmarkets.com/wp-content/uploads/IC-Markets-CFD-PDS.pdf

1. According to their document, (page 5) "IC Markets offers its CFDs based on a modified Direct Market Access pricing model. IC Markets makes hedge contracts at around the same time as itissues the CFD to you by making a corresponding hedge contract with its Hedge Counterparty (not by placing orders directly into the market)". SO they are not what they claim (with all that true ecn thing) but at the same time, they are passing the ball to a third-party (hedging) so that they can say on their website as they are not market makers.

IC Markets is not a bank so we cannot deal directly in the market on your behalf. We must use credit intermediaries aka ‘prime brokers’ hereafter PBs in order to access the market on your behalf. Brokers, hedge funds, managed funds, etc.. all use PBs in order to access the market. Banks only ‘give up’ (trades/liquidity/credit) to other banks. Hence the term ‘interbank market’.


To trade in any derivatives market you will need a credit intermediary so you will never trade in a derivatives market whether it be FX or equity CFDs (ECN environment or not) as ‘Alabama’. Any open contract will be between yourself and your PB/broker. This is where the term ‘over-the-counter’ comes from. OTC refers in part to a bilateral agreement between yourself and your broker. Product Disclosure Statements outlines the risks, product information, terms and conditions of the agreement.


See more information on OTC here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-counter_(finance)


Can you clarify what you mean by passing the ball and hedging?

2. According to their document, (page 5) "IC Markets does not itself seek to make a market or speculate. [GREAT] IC Markets’ Hedge Counterparty may in turn choose to hedge directly into the market or it may make a market in its pricing to IC Markets [HIMMMMM], depending on the market for the underlying investment and the exchange hours. IC Markets’ bid and offer prices to you are based on the corresponding prices offered by the Hedge Counterparty to IC Markets." SO this means that they may not touch your position but they also don't guarantee us that they don't have a dealing desk in the hedging party's office or have a special agreement with them!!!

As above, our hedge counterparty is our PB. Further down the line there are liquidity providers but these are not our hedge counterparties, the same as our PB is not your hedge counterparty, IC Markets is.


Liquidity providers can do whatever they want with the flow. It’s not our business, it’s not our client’s business. All IC Markets and our clients typically care about is tight spreads and good execution. If these are both good then what the LPs are doing doesn’t matter and clients will be happy!

3. According to their document (page 5), "Generally the prices of IC Markets’ CFDs are set on the trading platform to give competitive pricing but you should be aware that IC Markets is responsible for setting the prices of opening and closing CFDs. IC Markets does not act as your agent to find you the best prices." SO THEY ARE NOT A TRUE BROKER AS FCA (UK REG) PUTS IT.

This relates the product you are trading being OTC rather than exchange traded. Exchanges will have policies around prices and execution to govern how its members can interact with the exchange and this will generally be regulated quite heavily (hence the HFT debate).


OTC markets are fragmented as there is no central exchange. With this in mind it is reasonable to expect FX brokers to provide their clients with competitive prices but ‘best’ is open to interpretation. IC Markets has some of the tightest spreads globally and has been in the top few since 2012. I think this speaks of our commitment to provide clients with the best possible price.

4. Finally, according to their document (page 15), "IC Markets clients should be aware that some practices in placing orders can constitute market manipulation or creating a false market which is conduct prohibited under the Corporations Act 2001. It is the client’s responsibility to be aware of unacceptable market practices and the legal implications."

I believe this refers to market manipulation of equity and indices CFDs as they have underlying exchanges where orders can be made visible. It’s illegal in most countries to manipulate the market, especially by posting bids and offers in the market to create the impression of false supply or demand. E.g. posting an offer to sell 100,000 BHP shares 10c above the ask price when you don’t have 100,000 BHP shares to sell, you just want to stop the price from moving higher so you can purchase BHP at lower prices.

For UK regulations, this firm would be banned in 1 second but can live forever in Australia, mate! I would F...NG go to consumer rights office where I am based to complain about variety of issues about them but in Australia (as this "broker" biz is bringing money, their gov wont give a damn about this).

We have requested Rahman escalate his claim to a third party mediator so this case can be heard and the matter closed. I wouldn’t have a problem telling our side of the story to any third party mediator or regulator.

 

[Alabama]

Angus, just because you spoke to Peter and "he gave you good feedback" does not mean anything. There are hundreds of companies on that website and I do not believe that he would come out and say yes ICM is great everyone or yes ICM is good so use it! Actually, I know that for a fact but I'd like not to pull him into your Rahman vs. ICM thing.

In regards to you being a true broker and others, you said it yourself "we cannot deal directly in the market on your behalf." I couldn't say it better. That's why you are not a true/real broker. There are many good examples who are true brokers but i wont name the companies here in order not to be attached to them. The readers should use FCA or US regulated firms and look for "matched principal broker" wording in their unique FCA page.

You use a third party "hedge counterparty" (or something like that) which is fine, but you don't transparently say who that is? You don't say what your deal with them is. That counterparty may have a special agreement with you (even a dealing desk on your behalf or you being there). Global Prime (who is another market maker like you - i believe) actually gives out the name of its counterparty in its PSD - still, I'd not use any ASIC broker.

In regards to the chart thing, I think Rahman said that you never provided an actual chart of the timeframe from ICM when the account was swiped. If you could post them here (for example, if the issue happened on 15 march 2015 from 15:00 to 15:03 - then if we can see 1M charts (or relevant ticks) to show the actual spikes then no one can argue against you. OR Rahman can do that through tradeproofer.com (which is the preferred method)

Those two things can conclude this whole thread.

@RahmanSL, I don't understand why you use FOS. FOS is an organisation owned by companies like icm. The real regulatory body you MUST be contacting (asap) is ASIC: https://www.asic.gov.au/about-asic/contact-us/how-to-complain/ If you are too late in your application (there might be a 6-months limit for complaints from the date the issue happened), they may not accept and you may say goodbye to that 5K all together. No wonder why FOS takes matters slowly.

@angus, unfortunately, I actually WAS going to set up with ICM but after reading so many things, I've come to terms that that will never happen:
- ICM boss Andrew posting fake reviews on FPA: https://www.forexpeacearmy.com/public/review/www.icmarkets.com
- There is a warning from FPA on ICM (see fpa icm page)
- ICM boss Andrew threatening his ex-customers with legal actions just because those people expressed their opinions and experiences with the company (see old posts in this thread and other icm related thread on fpa)
- ICM causing random "forced" spikes for customers who come with an IB (also bad support for their IBs) - also ppl in general complain about the spikes!: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=278085&page=49 and http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=278085&page=48

I've got nothing against you and understand your whole point since you are a worker there and you are paid to defend them. I also like the fact that you are here to explain and talk. But these issues (maybe not caused by you) are NOT showing ICM in the best light that I would trust with my money.

Good luck to you all.

 

[Alonedevils]

I was very disappointed with the ICMarkets Representative The only response to this thread, while In Other Thread Not Responded ..

No Rebuttal From ICMarket At Other Thread ..

 

[Angus Walker]

I was very disappointed with the ICMarkets Representative The only response to this thread, while In Other Thread Not Responded ..

No Rebuttal From ICMarket At Other Thread ..

Encouragingly the client complaining on the other thread followed our dispute resolution process. Once that process is concluded we may join the discussion.

 

[danielsoy]

What does FOS stand for please?

 

[RahmanSL]

@Alabama thank you very much for your educated input. You are one of the very few people here who actually understand the real issues and disputes I have with ICM which has nothing to do with money….and thank you for a very useful www.tradeproofer.com site which has been most helpful….and should be helpful to Traders wishing to check on their broker’s spread vs other brokers’ spread.

Yes, I agree that FOS (Financial OmbudsmanService) is practically owned by Brokers who make up their membership and, no, I am not sending my report to them but directly to ASIC because they are the regulator and have more & sharper teeth. Whether I have already sent out my report to authorities or not, I will keep that info to myself until I have some positive feedbacks.

From day one…i.e. 5/Mar/2015….ICM has literally flooded me with trades data and record which prove nothing other than to confirm that my trades were opened and then forced closed-out due to (as they claimed) spread widening. Every trade position opened will need a record for close-out….it does not prove anything beyond proper accounting procedures.

Right from the beginning I have sent ICM different brokers (including one from ICM MT4 platform) charts from MT4 and jforex platform which does not show spread widening. However ICM did not and would not send me comparison charts (which they could easily do so) to prove that spread widening did happen with other brokers too on that date & time and not isolated and confined to ICM back-office server which created that spread widening to wipe out my trading account.

As already mentioned, that trading account 317165 really doesn’t mean that much to me as it probably would (like many of my other accounts before that) eventually be wipe-out too. But the way it “die before its time” and the strange & unusual circumstances & manner in which it “died” is the real issue and dispute I have with ICM.

As a matter of fact, very recently I have two accounts stop-out with other brokers but I have absolutely no issues and disputes with them because I saw the inevitable coming and, before I could recapitalized the accounts, they were margin-call and stop-out as normally would happen when I trade recklessly and with impunity……the USD was just too “high” on their legalized marijuana!

It really doesn’t matter whether ASIC will take up my case with ICM since my main purpose is to highlight my issues & disputes with ICM as I am still very much convinced that ICM created a false spread widening to wipe out my account and, until such time that can be proven otherwise, I maintain that ICM is a “I-See-Bucketshop” broker.

As posted in earlier post here at my thread, they have already been caught out for false margin-call and so, once-a-crook-always-a-crook since I-See-Bucketshop has tasted the forbidden fruit.

Since I-See-Bucketshop has been under the spotlight, I think they will, at least for now, suspend their manipulative actions on their existing clients.

Angus said “hard to sit on the sideline while Rahman post bad reviews on I-See-Bucketshop??”…. Well, I have been posting on I-See-Bucketshop since April 2015 in a number of sites & forums, but it sure took a long time for them to take notice which goes to prove that there really isn’t very much to defend in the first place because all those posts (mine and others) are mostly all true and ICM, who used to be a good broker, has turned into I-See-Bucketshop.

I am still being kept pretty busy with my new project works and so have basically put the forex market on the back burner (which is good since that force me to step back and reevaluate my trading style and stop wasting good money). BUT you can bet that, as soon as I have free time, I will be back here to keep my issues and disputes with I-See-Bucketshop alive for a very long time.

After all, we are the Traders who keep brokers in business and, if we are not happy with their services, we can post that in the world wide web

 

[RahmanSL]

ASIC review on I-See-Bucketshop registration is due on:

Next review date: 2/01/2016

...any complaints & issues highlighted to ASIC will have an effect on that review.

 

[RahmanSL]

As an updates, the Australian Authorities have go back to me on my case issues with I-See-Bucketshop and I have sent them my complete case report. It will take around 30 days before I know of progress and findings on my case issues with I-See-Bucketshop.

 

[Pharaoh]

Nice to see ASIC paying attention. I'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses.

 

[RahmanSL]

Yes, indeed, ASIC has shown interest in my misconduct case against ICMarkets a.k.a I-See-Bucketshop.

It has been brought to my attention that some fellow Traders have problem/trouble in filing their “Misconduct Report” to ASIC against ICMarkets a.k.a I-See-Bucketshop.

To avoid the trouble of having to reply to individuals having this problem, over the course of the week (or so depending on available free time I can get from my very busy work schedules) I will publish right here at this thread the step-by-step process for filing a “Misconduct Report” to ASIC.
And for those who have problem/trouble in making a proper report, they can PM or email me and I will help the best I can in refining their report. BUT, that “service” is limited to report against ICMarkets a.k.a I-See-Bucketshop.