Problem Crunch time! My case with ICMarkets

[RahmanSL]

As I have written to Angus in an email, I think we are not only not on the same page but even the same book!

Metaphor to my issue with ICM:

The cock died because it was struck & run-over by a vehicle while crossing the road.
I asked for proof of that event, and was instead given a lecture on the birth & death of the cock…..meaning the cock would eventually and inevitably die anywhere.
I/we all know that facts of life, but where is the proof for the premature death of that cock?....and this time they start on the evolution of life and even the enigma “which come first - chicken or egg?” question.

It’s as simple as to show me the squashed cock and the place where it got run-over. End of story!
===================================

Let me try to simplify my issue with ICM and hopefully this time it can be much clearer and easier for ICM to understand the crux of my issue….and perhaps someone here is much more able and can better phrase my issue for ICM to understand:

I want and need ICM to provide irrefutable proof that the spread did widen sufficiently to cause instant/immediate account wipe/stop-out that happened so fast (as claimed by ICM) that absolutely no margin-call warning, followed by sequential forced closure of largest to smallest losing positions could take place.
The date & time is for the following news release:

5-Mar-2015, 23:00 - US Factory Orders (MoM) - Previous: -3.5% - Consensus: 0.2% - Actual: -0.7%
5-Mar-2015, 23:00 - Can. Ivey Purchasing Managers Index - Previous: 42.60 - Consensus: - Actual: 50.80
5-Mar-2015, 23:00 - Can. Ivey Purchasing Managers Index s.a - Previous: 45.40 - Consensus: 50.00 - Actual: 49.70
5-Mar-2015, 23:00 - US FOMC Member Williams speech
5-Mar-2015, 23:00 - Hungary Budget Balance - Previous: 53.80B - Consensus: - Actual: 256.90B

Then, since they are also most relevant to my issue with ICM, what was the spread for USD/CAD for the following news releases which, as can be clearly seen on the MT4 screenshot chart, were apparently more volatile and so should be more likely to cause instantaneous account stop/wipe-out (if any instantaneous account stop-out is to occur) before the next (as in above) news releases :

5-Mar-2015, 20:45 – ECB Interest Rate Decision - Previous: 0.05% - Consensus: 0.05% - Actual: 0.05%
5-Mar-2015, 21:30 – ECB Monetary Policy Statement & Press conference -
5-Mar-2015, 21:30 – US Nonfarm Productivity - Previous: 3.7% - Consensus: -2.3% - Actual: -2.2%
5-Mar-2015, 21:30 – US Unit Labor Costs - Previous: -2.3% - Consensus: 3.3% - Actual: 4.1%
5-Mar-2015, 21:30 - US Continuing Jobless Claims - Previous: 2.40M - Consensus: 2.40M - Actual: 2.42M
5-Mar-2015, 21:30 - US Initial Jobless Claims - Previous: 313.00K - Consensus: 295.00K - Actual: 320.00K

Since English is not my first language, perhaps I have been unable to explain my issues adequately & eloquently and so, if someone here is able to understand my real issue, please help me to rephrase or even to rewrite them so that ICM can finally understand my real issues and to address them as requested.

 

[Angus Jon Walker]

As I have written to Angus in an email, I think we are not only not on the same page but even the same book!

Metaphor to my issue with ICM:

The cock died because it was struck & run-over by a vehicle while crossing the road.
I asked for proof of that event, and was instead given a lecture on the birth & death of the cock…..meaning the cock would eventually and inevitably die anywhere.
I/we all know that facts of life, but where is the proof for the premature death of that cock?....and this time they start on the evolution of life and even the enigma “which come first - chicken or egg?” question.

It’s as simple as to show me the squashed cock and the place where it got run-over. End of story!
[/B]

Hi Rahman,

I'll say it again since you only read what you want to

Firstly we must establish the cash, equity, used margin, margin level, net and gross position before the stop out. These have been provided to Rahman, however, there has been no acknowledgement to date that any of these are correct.

Second, if we can agree that the above information is correct then we can proceed to analyse the the equity on the account at the times Rahman has indicated

1. 15:30 - News release: Nonfarm productivity, Unit labor costs, Initial jobless claims, continuing claims
2. 16:00 - USDCAD swing high at 1.2486
3. 16:59 - Stop out - News release: US factory orders, CA Ivey purchasing managers index[/B]

You've skipped several chapters... Right now you haven't even acknowledged that there was a 'cock'.

In order to establish what has happened YOU need to acknowledge that the account information I have provided is correct. As I made clear in my post, once we all agree on this information I will move to step 2.

 

[Angus Jon Walker]

Since English is not my first language, perhaps I have been unable to explain my issues adequately & eloquently and so, if someone here is able to understand my real issue, please help me to rephrase or even to rewrite them so that ICM can finally understand my real issues and to address them as requested.[/B]

So my post above isn't lost in translation, IC Markets and myself understand your issues. To explain this issue properly so that all parties can understand and that there is zero doubt there needs to be 'context'.

What is the point of providing tick data to show the spreads if we have nothing to measure it against since you havent verified your equity and margin level were correct? I should add that when I say 'analyse equity at times x, y and z', this refers to looking at tick data from our platforms to recreate your equity and margin level.

I note at this point that you still haven't acknowledged that your account wasn't fully hedged as this would contradict the story you've been falsely pushing on FPA and other forums since March.

 

[RahmanSL]

Alright, since ICM is so insistent on "after the facts" data, 5 Attachments are full details of my trading account#317165 showing all 29 numbers x 0.01 lot “Buy” and 31 numbers x 0.10 lot “Sell” positions and all on USD/CAD.

Now let’s see some proof that the shot to the rear end was in actual fact a shot to the heart that instantly killed the bull…..and don’t forget proof for earlier more volatile news releases which left the account relatively unscathed.

 

[Angus Jon Walker]

Alright, since ICM is so insistent on "after the facts" data

We are insistent on verifying "before the facts" data. All you have contributed at this stage is an account statement and fictional recounts of what you think happened. You still haven't verified if the information from which IC Markets has based its calculations on is correct.

5 Attachments are full details of my trading account#317165 showing all 29 numbers x 0.01 lot “Buy” and 31 numbers x 0.10 lot “Sell” positions and all on USD/CAD.

Again, this is not helping your case and the buy volumes you have quoted are incorrect.

Now let’s see some proof that the shot to the rear end was in actual fact a shot to the heart that instantly killed the bull…..and don’t forget proof for earlier more volatile news releases which left the account relatively unscathed.

Why don't we engage in construction discussion instead?

Can someone from FPA interject?

Is it unreasonable to expect Rahman or someone else in the FPA community to verify the account information is correct so we can then move on to prices and spreads and how these have caused a stop out?

 

[dkami]

Can someone from FPA interject?

Is it unreasonable to expect Rahman or someone else in the FPA community to verify the account information is correct so we can then move on to prices and spreads and how these have caused a stop out?

Yes, RahmanSL statement and your spread sheet seem to match up to me with the correct amount of trades and lot's closed (s/o) on 5/3/15

 

[Angus Jon Walker]

Yes, RahmanSL statement and your spread sheet seem to match up to me with the correct amount of trades and lot's closed (s/o) on 5/3/15

Do the account, equity, margin, used margin, net and gross lots also look correct?


Rahman, since this is your account it would be great to have you confirm these numbers are correct also.

 

[dkami]

Cash $5,576.84
Equity $202.21
Used margin $51.02
Margin level 396%
Net position 0.2 lots short USDCAD
Gross position 6.0 lots USDCAD (long 2.9 lots, short 3.1 lots)

Cash - the cash is determined by the current balance of -$30.27 - -$5607.11 (the net PnL from the stop outs). This gives us $5576.84.

Equity - this is determined by the cash + unrealised net PnL. For this calculation we have assumed a bid rate of 1.24604 on all long positions and an ask rate of 1.2461 on all short positions.

Used margin - This is equal to net lots * the contract size * the account leverage / AUDUSD exchange rate to convert the USD margin amount in to AUD.
Used margin = 0.2*100000*0.002/0.78406
Used margin = $51.02 AUD

Note: the margin is determined by the value of the base currency on any FX trade.

Margin level this is equal to equity / used margin
Margin level = 202.21/51.02
Margin level = 396%

Net Position is equal to long USDCAD positions minus short USDCAD positions
Net Position = 2.9-3.1
Net Position = -0.2 lots

Gross position is equal to longs plus shorts
Net Position = 2.9+3.1
Gross Position = 6 lots

I have attached a spreadsheet that has been modified to show these calculations only. Again, once we can agree on this information we can progress to the second stage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a9fxs4f5t8ve64t/Rahman Stop Out FPA 1.xlsx?dl=0

Do the account, equity, margin, used margin, net and gross lots also look correct?

All the Numbers seem to add up to me!

 

[RahmanSL]

@dkami, thank you very much for taking an active role on this post

========================
ICM Angus, I believe we all are quite capable in reading and understanding what you & I have posted here and can see your figures are matching as you described and so there is no need for confirmation whatsoever.

Why don’t you just go ahead and post all your facts and figures and, at the end of your presentation, I will ask what I have been asking, here and from your Support staff, from the very beginning:

I want and need ICM to provide irrefutable proof that the spread did widen sufficiently to cause instant/immediate account wipe/stop-out that happened so fast (as claimed by ICM) that absolutely no margin-call warning, followed by sequential forced closure of largest to smallest losing positions could take place for above economic news events as in my above post.

 

[Angus Jon Walker]

Since we have the consensus of one FPA user I guess we can continue on... Thank you dkami.

I want and need ICM to provide irrefutable proof that the spread did widen sufficiently to cause instant/immediate account wipe/stop-out that happened so fast (as claimed by ICM) that absolutely no margin-call warning, followed by sequential forced closure of largest to smallest losing positions could take place.

Through Rahman's posts we can deduce that he wants proof that

1. If wide spreads were the cause then why didn't the earlier news cause a stop out since it was seen as higher impact news?
2. That the swing high at 16:00 should have put more stress on his account and potentially caused a stop out.
3. That the spread was wide enough to cause a stop out.

In order to show this we have attached two spreadsheets and the trade bridge confirmation from the first fill during Rahman’s stop out.

USDCAD Tick Data 2015.03.05 – this data comes from the cTrader platform (same price as MT4) and is in GMT. The data has been organised in to four tabs

• Raw Data – for your perusal
• 1530 – showing tick data from 15:29-15:31 MT4 time
• 1600 - showing tick data from 15:59-16:01 MT4 time
• Stop out - showing tick data from 16:59-17:01 MT4 time

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jlvcv351lsirg5/USDCAD Tick Data 2015.03.05.xlsx?dl=0

Rahman Stop Out FPA 2 – This is an extension of the first spreadsheet I posted. It now has four tabs to cover each time

• Raw Data – for your perusal
• 1530 – Showing trades, equity, etc.. using the worst spread between 15:29-15:31 MT4 time
• 1600 - Showing trades, equity, etc.. using the worst ask price and max spread between 15:59-16:01 MT4 time
• Stop out - Showing trades, equity, etc.. using the bid/ask rates recorded on the trade confirmation of the first stop out.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c0kjx3mvwkk7323/Rahman Stop Out FPA 2.xlsx?dl=0

Bridge Trade Confirmation #7825790

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0ex8jdx6863fbt/Bridge Trade Confirmation #7825790.jpg?dl=0

Summaries

15:30 - News release: Nonfarm productivity, Unit labor costs, Initial jobless claims, continuing claims

Between the periods of 15:29-15:31 MT4 time there was a max spread from the news of 5.1 pips. Using this spread as a guide I have used the bid/ask rates of 1.2445/1.2451 to determine Rahman’s worst equity during this news release. According to the tick data the ask never went to this price, I have used it to paint a worse picture..

Not surprisingly, Rahman’s account came close to a margin stop out. His account stats at this time can be seen below.

Cash $5576.84
Unrealised Net PnL -$5515.35
Equity $61.47
Used margin $51.02
Margin Level 120%

16:00 - USDCAD swing high at 1.2486

Nothing special at this time except it marked a swing high on USDCAD. I have used the bid high and the max spread during the periods of 15:59-16:01 MT4 time to show the worst case scenario for Rahman’s account.

Cash $5576.84
Unrealised Net PnL -$5413.47
Equity $163.37
Used margin $51.02
Margin Level 320%

16:59 - Stop out - News release: US factory orders, CA Ivey purchasing managers index

This marks the time when the stop out happened. We have used the bid/ask rates of 1.24604/1.24678 to calculate Rahman’s account stats at the time of the stop out. These rates can be verified using the trade confirmation attached above.

Cash $5576.84
Unrealised Net PnL -$5591.82
Equity $-14.98
Used margin $51.02
Margin Level -29%

I want and need ICM to provide irrefutable proof that the spread did widen sufficiently to cause instant/immediate account wipe/stop-out that happened so fast (as claimed by ICM) that absolutely no margin-call warning, followed by sequential forced closure of largest to smallest losing positions could take placefor above economic news events as in my above post.

Rahman, I'm guessing the above wont satisfy you. I will explain in a post tomorrow how it is that your account was liquidated without warning in a matter of seconds. If you review the tick data and accompanying graph at 16:59 you could also see this for yourself...