RESOLVED - Tradewithprecision.com (Nick McDonald)
- Thread starter kwaldron
- Start date
I agree terms and conditions need to be examined in advance, and especially on expensive items. However, if there are contradictions within those terms and conditions, it is not the fault of the purchaser but the website owner who wrote them. If additionally there is an implied unfair term that the company is using against a purchaser, as there is in this case, the terms and conditions do not apply at all and should be set aside altogether. Consequently, a purchaser is entitled to increase the compensation due to reflect these coming to light.
Trade With Precision
TradeWithPrecision.com Representative
- Messages
- 6
As per the suggestion of the senior moderators at Forex Peace Army, we have today attempted to submit a refund via our payment system using Paypal. However we have learned that Paypal will only allow us to refund payments within 60 days of receipt. Therefore KWaldron, if you wish to receive a final payment of £250 from us then please email info@tradewithprecision.com with either a bank account number or an email address linked to a paypal account and I will ensure that the payment is made promptly.
I would like to express my regret that we have not been able to reach an amicable conclusion before it got to this stage. Further dialogue on this topic is proving fruitless since after much effort and mediation, our version of events is still considerably different from your own. Saying that, it was your choice to bring this matter to the FPA forums and having assessed all of your submitted evidence, this is the resolution that they have recommended. Based on this advice we have again increased our refund over and above what is due in order to show our ongoing compromise to resolve the matter. We ask only that you also accept the advice you requested.
The refund of an additional £250 provides you with the full £1750 requested from us in your email of 9th October 2012. You are now in receipt of a refund that is greater than that provided for under the terms and conditions that you agreed to upon purchase and therefore satisfies the matter in full.
Regards,
Nick McDonald
Statement of Claim Against Trade With Precision (TWP)
Since I opened this thread, more than a 1,000 people have viewed it. To understand my complaint against TWP, you first need to understand what I purchased in the first instance. On September 17th 2012, I purchased the Precision Platinum Package course for £2,499 paying for it with my Visa card. This course as the name “package“ implies was a composite course made up of the following elements: 1. PTE course; 2. Mastering The Markets ( MTM) course; 3. the PFX course; and 4- mentoring for one year.
There was lots of information on TWP’s website on the date I did the purchase but the most important having a bearing on the purchase was the satisfaction guarantee and terms and conditions. I hereafter show what these two stated by printing what they said in full below between the horizontal dotted lines.
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Satisfaction Guarantee
We are supremely confident our Precision Platinum Package will dramatically improve your trading and we are prepared to put our money where our mouth is. In the unlikely event you don't agree after completing the Mastering the Markets (MTM) course we will refund not only the full price paid for the PFX course and Precision Perspectives subscription but we will also refund 50% of the cost of the MTM course! We will even allow you to keep the MTM manual and continue to attend the MTM team mentoring.
Terms and Conditions
General
By accessing this site and hereby purchasing Trade With Precision training in any form, including but not limited to seminars, webinars, mentoring or newsletter, you signify that you have read and accepted the following term and conditions. Your use of the Trade With Precision website and/or the purchase of our products indicate your acceptance of these terms. If you do not agree to be bound by these terms then please exit the site immediately and do not proceed with training through Trade With Precision. These terms can be modified at any time without notice.
All information that is provided by Trade With Precision is for educational purposes only. Trade With Precision and its representatives are not stockbrokers, financial or investment advisors and do not recommend any stocks, bonds, options, CFD’s, currencies or any securities of any kind. Any financial securities that are mentioned throughout the course of training and/or website/other products are cited only for illustrative and educational purposes.
Investing in financial markets is risky and it is possible to lose money. It is recommended that you seek a professional licensed financial advisor prior to implementing any investment program or financial plan. Past performance is no indication or guarantee of anticipated future results. Nick McDonald, Trade With Precision and its employees, directors, presenters, contributors and representatives do not guarantee any results or investment returns based on the training and information that you receive.
We may at times provide links to other websites, companies and services. We are in no way responsible for the content of these sites and they are provided for your information only. Please refer to their websites or companies specific terms and conditions.
You acknowledge that Trade With Precision and its employees and representatives have not promised you in any manner whatsoever that you will earn a profit from your personal investments or decisions based on the training and education provided.
All material, logos & content is the property of Trade With Precision and cannot be used for other purposes without explicit written permission. You agree not to copy, reproduce, publish or otherwise disseminate in whatsoever form or media any of the training materials or information that you will receive in or related to the training, without the written consent of Trade With Precision.
Cooling Off Period
Client satisfaction is paramount to us therefore we are pleased to offer a no questions asked 14 day cooling off period on all purchases. If during this period you wish to request a refund or an exchange of product you simply need to inform us via email within 14 days from the date of purchase. If you decide to attend or view a recording of a course within your 14 day cooling off period then your right to request a refund or exchange will be forfeited unless you qualify for the Precision Traders Edge satisfaction guarantee or the Mastering The Markets satisfaction guarantee (both detailed below).
If you do decide to cancel, then any course materials supplied to you must be sent back to our London, Sydney or Auckland offices.
Partial refunds for 1-2-1 mentoring services will not be made under any circumstances once the mentoring has begun.
Precision Traders Edge Satisfaction Guarantee
In order to qualify for the Precision Traders Edge Satisfaction Guarantee if you are not completely satisfied you must notify us in writing within 5 working days of your completion date (this will either be the date you attended the webinar or the date your access expired to view the recording) that you wish to invoke the satisfaction guarantee and the reason why you are dissatisfied. Upon receipt of this email you will be refunded 100% of your original payment
Precision Platinum Package Satisfaction Guarantee
In order to qualify for the Precision Platinum Package (PPP) Satisfaction Guarantee you must complete the Mastering the Markets (MTM) course before completing any of the other courses contained in the PPP. After completing the MTM course if you aren’t completely satisfied you must notify us in writing within 5 working days of your completion date (this will either be the date you attended the webinar or the date your access expired to view the recording) that you wish to invoke the satisfaction guarantee. If we have sent you any course manuals in addition to the MTM manual, then you are required to return all manuals other than the MTM manual to our office. Upon receipt of the manuals in a reusable state we will refund the full cost of the package price less 50% of the cost of the MTM course. You will be entitled to keep the MTM manual and attend the MTM team mentoring sessions.
Privacy Policy
Trade With Precision takes your privacy seriously. When you sign up for a service from Trade With Precision we store your name, email address and telephone number if provided. By signing up to an email service or product, you agree to the collection, storage and processing of your information in the manner set out in this policy. We use the information we collect from you to process orders, identify personal preferences and match your needs with relevant products and services. In addition, we use the information for internal administration and analysis. We use it to personalise your visits to our website and to help us develop the design and layout of the website to ensure that it is as useful and enjoyable as possible. From time to time, we may also use it to conduct surveys on what you think of us and our products and services. We will also use your information to send offers via email or through a telephone call from us, sponsors of events you have attended and other very carefully selected outside companies. Should you wish to unsubscribe at any time, instructions on how to do so are included with every email. We will only disclose your data to third parties, if we are compelled to do so for legal or regulatory purposes. You have the right to ask us for a copy of the personal information we hold about you, and to correct any inaccuracies in that information. Membership payments are managed securely by PayPal. Occasionally, the client may consent to provide their details in order to allow the client to make a payment to Trade With Precision. (Any details taken by Trade With Precision in order to set up a payment or subscription is destroyed after the required membership payment has been made.)
If you have any queries regarding this privacy statement, please email us at: info@tradewithprecision.com
Subscription Services
Payments for subscription services, including but not limited to the Precision Perspectives video newsletter & PP Lite, must be made one month in advance. Payment dates will recur on the same date each month. All cancellations must be communicated to us in writing by post or email. Under no circumstances will any refunds be given for any part month.
Free or Discounted Trial of Subscription Services
From time to time we may offer a free or discounted trial to our subscription services. Each customer is restricted to one free or discounted trial only of the subscription service.
10 Day Risk Free Trial of Subscription Services
If you are a new subscriber wishing to exercise the right to cancel under the 10 day risk free trial period, notification must be given in writing via email within 10 calendar days of subscription commencement. The subscription may also be cancelled in Paypal. A full refund will be provided with no questions asked provided the notice is within the 10 day period and provided you have never exercised the 10 day risk free trial before. Please note that your access to the service will cease on the day we receive your cancellation notice. If the cancellation occurs after 10 days then the maximum liability is for one months subscription. If you accepted an offer or promotion of a free or discounted course or webinar that took place within this 10 day period, no refunds will be given under any circumstances.
Partner Offers
Trade With Precision from time to time may have in place referral agreements with third parties who pay Trade With Precision a referral fee. This may be either a one time referral fee or an ongoing referral fee based on ongoing trading activity. If Trade With Precision has introduced you to a third party you acknowledge and consent to that third party providing Trade With Precision information to the extent that it is necessary for them to fulfil their obligations under any such agreement. The disclosure to Trade With Precision may include your date of application, your account status and your trading activity. Any information received by Trade With Precision will be treated in accordance with Trade With Precision’s Privacy Policy.
Discounted Courses for Subscription Clients
If a course has been discounted or given free on the basis of a client being a subscription member of Precision Perspectives, the client must remain a subscribed member at the time of the course. If the subscription is cancelled prior to the course date then the discounted price will be held null and void and the full balance payable to attend the respective course / courses. No refunds will be given on courses if this is outside the 5 day cooling off period. Discounts and free courses are only given on the understanding that the client has been subscribed to PP for at least 2 months for each course that is bought at a discount. Discounts will not apply if a client joins PP for 1 month only.
Refer A Friend
Introduce a friend and both current PP subscriber and 'friend' will receive the second month free of charge in the form of a reimbursement. This offer is valid to both subscriber and 'friend' only if 'friend' does not exercise the right for the 10-day money-back guarantee and remains subscribed for a minimum of 2 months.
General Release
By accessing this site and/or by purchasing products from Trade With Precision you hereby generally release Trade With Precision and its employees and representatives, including but not limited to, the host facility, its employees or agents from any liability whatsoever related to your participation in this course of training. You hereby assume the risk for claims herefore and hereafter arising from your participation in this training or by the use of this website/other products.
You agree that Trade with Precision will accept no responsibility or liability for any loss/losses caused either directly or indirectly as a result of using their products or services. This includes non delivery of emails, problems with the website, and any errors or omissions.
‘Trade With Precision’ is the trading name for Precision Universal LP registered in New Zealand, under registration number 2540518.
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After receiving a receipt for my purchase from TWP, I received an email from them confirming my username, password and telling me to view the PTE course online first while I was waiting for the manuals to arrive. This instruction to view the PTE course first made sense because it was the base course providing a key to understanding the remaining courses but was in clear breach of their terms and conditions, underlined above, telling people they must complete the MTM course first in order to qualify for the PPP Satisfaction Guarantee. This is the first contradiction in the company’s terms and conditions.
After the manuals arrived at my address, I emailed TWP and requested online access to the MTM course. On completing the first viewing of this course, I had questions on the course which I sent off to TWP, which they answered within a few days. After I had viewed the MTM course for the second time, I asked for and was granted access to the PFX course. I also had queries on PFX course which I sent in an email to TWP and they answered them within three days. However, on reviewing everything I had purchased and the answers to the questions that I was given, I was not satisfied with the course, and sent off an email to Craig Cobb on October 8th 21012 requesting a refund.
Craig Cobb was the only parson that I had dealt with at TWP up to that point, but instead of getting a reply to my request for a refund from him, I instead got a phone call on October 9th from a person identifying himself as Travis McKenzie. I discussed with TM at length why I was dissatisfied with the course and repeated my request for a refund to which he finally replied: “ okay then, I will give you a full refund but you must return the manuals to us in good condition “. To this I replied “I will do, just give me the address to which you want them sent “. He would not give me the address but said he would confirm it to me. Just a few hours after our conversation had ended, I sent him an email confirming what we had agreed in principle, and requesting that he confirm the address to which the manuals were to be sent. His reply to this email stated that he did not have the authority on his own to grant me a refund. If the latter is true, why the pretence in our telephone conversation that he had this authority?
On October 11th 2012, I received an email from TWP with Travis McKenzie’s name at the bottom of it saying the company owed me nothing because I had breached their terms as set out in the satisfaction guarantee, but offering me £800 as a goodwill gesture which I rejected. The breaches he identified as: (1) proceeding to the PFX course when this action was forbidden; (2) attending a mentoring session; and (3) applying for a refund out of time. I pointed out in my reply that the satisfaction guarantee (see it above consisting of 8 lines); which he reproduced in the email as substantiation; did not say the following: that proceeding to the PFX course was forbidden; or that attending a mentoring session disqualified anyone from a refund; it did not state at all any reference to the number of days by which a refund was to be requested.
In his reply in the next email to me, TM did not address the specific points made by me above but brought my attention to the wider terms and conditions, which I have shown above under that heading consisting of 159 lines.
In my reply, I pointed out the following: 1.the company’s terms and conditions are unfair because they are seeking by implication to make a customer come to a conclusion on satisfaction without seeing all the course; 2. the terms and conditions are at odds with the satisfaction guarantee because there is no time limit for a refund stated on the latter; and 3. and the instruction in the terms and conditions to watch the MTM course first was nonsensical because in order to understand it a trader needed to watch the PTE base course first.
In the last two paragraphs of my email, I stated that where there were contradictions and an implied unfair term in a contract, those terms and conditions should be set aside altogether and a fair and reasonable settlement made which is to return the purchaser the purchase price of the course.
Shortly after that, TM sent me an email saying that Nick McDonald would now be dealing with my refund, and to expect an email from him on this. NM in his first email to me took a similar line to McKenzie on everything, including repeating that I had requested a refund “well outside“ the stipulated period but upped the amount of the refund offer to £1,275.
My reply to Nick McDonald pointed out the following: two contradictions and the unfair term in TWP’s terms and conditions and satisfaction guarantee; having checked the dates, I refuted his claim that I was out of time in applying for a refund; I offered the company the possibility of having the dispute resolved in the UK Small Claims Court cheaply by written evidence without the need to attend court, whereby a judge would consider the evidence and make a decision binding on both parties; and I totally rejected the offer of £1,275 to settle the dispute.
I was satisfied that TWP’s unfair term contravened the UK’s Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, and as the company were taking a long time in replying to my last email, I did some research on the laws of New Zealand –specifically their Fair Trading Act. The Act says it is illegal for businesses to do the following: mislead customers; give false or inaccurate information; use unfair trading practices or terms. I sent off to TWP a further email outlining why the information on the company’s website contravened New Zealand’s laws.
I did get a reply from TWP to my two emails on October 22nd 2012. In it Nick McDonald apologised for saying that I had applied for a refund out of time, and acknowledged that he had not checked the dates. However, he took up the same old positions advanced by the company on all the other issues. He ended the email by saying the offer of a refund remained at £1,275.
Before I wrote a reply to this email, I paid a visit to my local CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau) to check on the law in relation to purchases made off websites. They confirmed that if there are contradictions or unfair term/terms stated on a website having a bearing on the decision to purchase, or the terms of a refund, that voids those terms and conditions. I also spoke on the OFT (Office of Fair Trading) who more or less confirmed the same thing. The lady at the OFT on hearing a summary of what I had to say said: “ this sounds like fraudulent behaviour by the company to me… have you reported it to Action Fraud? ” I confirmed to her that I hadn’t done so at that point. AF is a division of the UK police.
On October 23rd 2012, I wrote the last email in the series to TWP for the attention of NM. In it I stated the following: I accepted his apology for wrongly stating that I had applied for a refund out of time; I repeated my consistent line on all the other issues between us; I gave him the opportunity to ring me if he wanted to rather than always communicating by email; bearing in mind what the OFT had said, I warned him that if anything less that the full amount was refunded I would be reporting the matter to the fraud squad.
When I received NM’s reply on October 25th 2012, stating that only £1,500 of the £2,499 that I had requested had been credited back to my Visa card, I immediately picked up the phone and reported the matter to Action Fraud as the OFT had recommended that I do. I made a long statement to AF about the whole thing, and the UK police have issued me with a crime number.
Just to recap, I think the terms & conditions as set by the company for doing business are unenforceable for the following reasons:
• The contradiction instructing purchasers to view the MTM course first when to understand everything that followed the PTE course had to be viewed first.
• The contradictions between the basis for doing business as set out above under the headings Terms and Conditions and the separate Satisfaction Guarantee. The latter does not state at all any reason for not progressing to the PFX course, or any time limit on applying for a refund.
• Nothing stated above under the heading Terms and Conditions states that progressing to the PFX course disqualifies a person from a refund. If it did expressly state that, it would be unfair term as it would be restricting a person from viewing all he had purchased on a composite product before coming to a conclusion on satisfaction. Instead the company are relying on words like “ After completing the MTM course if you aren’t completely satisfied you must notify us in writing within 5 working days of your completion date that you wish to invoke the satisfaction guarantee. “ In other words, they are implying an unfair term and thereby confusing purchasers.
Since I joined FPA’s site, I have been emailed by FPA Discounts section about courses available on the Internet on which they have negotiated special deals. One of these courses is by an educator called Bob Iaccino who offers a full 30 day money back with his course. Another is by Charles A Floyd who offers a 60 money back guarantee with his course. Longstanding mentors such as Bill Poulos and Peter Bain offer at least 30 day money back guarantees with their courses. Trade With Precision’s basis for doing business, ignoring contradictions and unfair terms, is very poor in comparison with these.
I will make an offer to TWP to settle this case from here. The amount that I paid for the course was £2,499, less the amount already refunded of £1,500 = £999 shortfall. I has suffered disruption to my life, as outlined above, as a consequence of the information on their website being confusing at the date of purchase, and the unreasonable positions taken up by the company in processing my refund. I estimate the time wasted to be 23 man/hours @ £25 per hour = £575. The addition of these two figures: £999 + £575 = £1,574. I am therefore prepared to settle my claim if £1,574 is credited back to my Visa card.
Since I opened this thread, more than a 1,000 people have viewed it. To understand my complaint against TWP, you first need to understand what I purchased in the first instance. On September 17th 2012, I purchased the Precision Platinum Package course for £2,499 paying for it with my Visa card. This course as the name “package“ implies was a composite course made up of the following elements: 1. PTE course; 2. Mastering The Markets ( MTM) course; 3. the PFX course; and 4- mentoring for one year.
There was lots of information on TWP’s website on the date I did the purchase but the most important having a bearing on the purchase was the satisfaction guarantee and terms and conditions. I hereafter show what these two stated by printing what they said in full below between the horizontal dotted lines.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Satisfaction Guarantee
We are supremely confident our Precision Platinum Package will dramatically improve your trading and we are prepared to put our money where our mouth is. In the unlikely event you don't agree after completing the Mastering the Markets (MTM) course we will refund not only the full price paid for the PFX course and Precision Perspectives subscription but we will also refund 50% of the cost of the MTM course! We will even allow you to keep the MTM manual and continue to attend the MTM team mentoring.
Terms and Conditions
General
By accessing this site and hereby purchasing Trade With Precision training in any form, including but not limited to seminars, webinars, mentoring or newsletter, you signify that you have read and accepted the following term and conditions. Your use of the Trade With Precision website and/or the purchase of our products indicate your acceptance of these terms. If you do not agree to be bound by these terms then please exit the site immediately and do not proceed with training through Trade With Precision. These terms can be modified at any time without notice.
All information that is provided by Trade With Precision is for educational purposes only. Trade With Precision and its representatives are not stockbrokers, financial or investment advisors and do not recommend any stocks, bonds, options, CFD’s, currencies or any securities of any kind. Any financial securities that are mentioned throughout the course of training and/or website/other products are cited only for illustrative and educational purposes.
Investing in financial markets is risky and it is possible to lose money. It is recommended that you seek a professional licensed financial advisor prior to implementing any investment program or financial plan. Past performance is no indication or guarantee of anticipated future results. Nick McDonald, Trade With Precision and its employees, directors, presenters, contributors and representatives do not guarantee any results or investment returns based on the training and information that you receive.
We may at times provide links to other websites, companies and services. We are in no way responsible for the content of these sites and they are provided for your information only. Please refer to their websites or companies specific terms and conditions.
You acknowledge that Trade With Precision and its employees and representatives have not promised you in any manner whatsoever that you will earn a profit from your personal investments or decisions based on the training and education provided.
All material, logos & content is the property of Trade With Precision and cannot be used for other purposes without explicit written permission. You agree not to copy, reproduce, publish or otherwise disseminate in whatsoever form or media any of the training materials or information that you will receive in or related to the training, without the written consent of Trade With Precision.
Cooling Off Period
Client satisfaction is paramount to us therefore we are pleased to offer a no questions asked 14 day cooling off period on all purchases. If during this period you wish to request a refund or an exchange of product you simply need to inform us via email within 14 days from the date of purchase. If you decide to attend or view a recording of a course within your 14 day cooling off period then your right to request a refund or exchange will be forfeited unless you qualify for the Precision Traders Edge satisfaction guarantee or the Mastering The Markets satisfaction guarantee (both detailed below).
If you do decide to cancel, then any course materials supplied to you must be sent back to our London, Sydney or Auckland offices.
Partial refunds for 1-2-1 mentoring services will not be made under any circumstances once the mentoring has begun.
Precision Traders Edge Satisfaction Guarantee
In order to qualify for the Precision Traders Edge Satisfaction Guarantee if you are not completely satisfied you must notify us in writing within 5 working days of your completion date (this will either be the date you attended the webinar or the date your access expired to view the recording) that you wish to invoke the satisfaction guarantee and the reason why you are dissatisfied. Upon receipt of this email you will be refunded 100% of your original payment
Precision Platinum Package Satisfaction Guarantee
In order to qualify for the Precision Platinum Package (PPP) Satisfaction Guarantee you must complete the Mastering the Markets (MTM) course before completing any of the other courses contained in the PPP. After completing the MTM course if you aren’t completely satisfied you must notify us in writing within 5 working days of your completion date (this will either be the date you attended the webinar or the date your access expired to view the recording) that you wish to invoke the satisfaction guarantee. If we have sent you any course manuals in addition to the MTM manual, then you are required to return all manuals other than the MTM manual to our office. Upon receipt of the manuals in a reusable state we will refund the full cost of the package price less 50% of the cost of the MTM course. You will be entitled to keep the MTM manual and attend the MTM team mentoring sessions.
Privacy Policy
Trade With Precision takes your privacy seriously. When you sign up for a service from Trade With Precision we store your name, email address and telephone number if provided. By signing up to an email service or product, you agree to the collection, storage and processing of your information in the manner set out in this policy. We use the information we collect from you to process orders, identify personal preferences and match your needs with relevant products and services. In addition, we use the information for internal administration and analysis. We use it to personalise your visits to our website and to help us develop the design and layout of the website to ensure that it is as useful and enjoyable as possible. From time to time, we may also use it to conduct surveys on what you think of us and our products and services. We will also use your information to send offers via email or through a telephone call from us, sponsors of events you have attended and other very carefully selected outside companies. Should you wish to unsubscribe at any time, instructions on how to do so are included with every email. We will only disclose your data to third parties, if we are compelled to do so for legal or regulatory purposes. You have the right to ask us for a copy of the personal information we hold about you, and to correct any inaccuracies in that information. Membership payments are managed securely by PayPal. Occasionally, the client may consent to provide their details in order to allow the client to make a payment to Trade With Precision. (Any details taken by Trade With Precision in order to set up a payment or subscription is destroyed after the required membership payment has been made.)
If you have any queries regarding this privacy statement, please email us at: info@tradewithprecision.com
Subscription Services
Payments for subscription services, including but not limited to the Precision Perspectives video newsletter & PP Lite, must be made one month in advance. Payment dates will recur on the same date each month. All cancellations must be communicated to us in writing by post or email. Under no circumstances will any refunds be given for any part month.
Free or Discounted Trial of Subscription Services
From time to time we may offer a free or discounted trial to our subscription services. Each customer is restricted to one free or discounted trial only of the subscription service.
10 Day Risk Free Trial of Subscription Services
If you are a new subscriber wishing to exercise the right to cancel under the 10 day risk free trial period, notification must be given in writing via email within 10 calendar days of subscription commencement. The subscription may also be cancelled in Paypal. A full refund will be provided with no questions asked provided the notice is within the 10 day period and provided you have never exercised the 10 day risk free trial before. Please note that your access to the service will cease on the day we receive your cancellation notice. If the cancellation occurs after 10 days then the maximum liability is for one months subscription. If you accepted an offer or promotion of a free or discounted course or webinar that took place within this 10 day period, no refunds will be given under any circumstances.
Partner Offers
Trade With Precision from time to time may have in place referral agreements with third parties who pay Trade With Precision a referral fee. This may be either a one time referral fee or an ongoing referral fee based on ongoing trading activity. If Trade With Precision has introduced you to a third party you acknowledge and consent to that third party providing Trade With Precision information to the extent that it is necessary for them to fulfil their obligations under any such agreement. The disclosure to Trade With Precision may include your date of application, your account status and your trading activity. Any information received by Trade With Precision will be treated in accordance with Trade With Precision’s Privacy Policy.
Discounted Courses for Subscription Clients
If a course has been discounted or given free on the basis of a client being a subscription member of Precision Perspectives, the client must remain a subscribed member at the time of the course. If the subscription is cancelled prior to the course date then the discounted price will be held null and void and the full balance payable to attend the respective course / courses. No refunds will be given on courses if this is outside the 5 day cooling off period. Discounts and free courses are only given on the understanding that the client has been subscribed to PP for at least 2 months for each course that is bought at a discount. Discounts will not apply if a client joins PP for 1 month only.
Refer A Friend
Introduce a friend and both current PP subscriber and 'friend' will receive the second month free of charge in the form of a reimbursement. This offer is valid to both subscriber and 'friend' only if 'friend' does not exercise the right for the 10-day money-back guarantee and remains subscribed for a minimum of 2 months.
General Release
By accessing this site and/or by purchasing products from Trade With Precision you hereby generally release Trade With Precision and its employees and representatives, including but not limited to, the host facility, its employees or agents from any liability whatsoever related to your participation in this course of training. You hereby assume the risk for claims herefore and hereafter arising from your participation in this training or by the use of this website/other products.
You agree that Trade with Precision will accept no responsibility or liability for any loss/losses caused either directly or indirectly as a result of using their products or services. This includes non delivery of emails, problems with the website, and any errors or omissions.
‘Trade With Precision’ is the trading name for Precision Universal LP registered in New Zealand, under registration number 2540518.
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After receiving a receipt for my purchase from TWP, I received an email from them confirming my username, password and telling me to view the PTE course online first while I was waiting for the manuals to arrive. This instruction to view the PTE course first made sense because it was the base course providing a key to understanding the remaining courses but was in clear breach of their terms and conditions, underlined above, telling people they must complete the MTM course first in order to qualify for the PPP Satisfaction Guarantee. This is the first contradiction in the company’s terms and conditions.
After the manuals arrived at my address, I emailed TWP and requested online access to the MTM course. On completing the first viewing of this course, I had questions on the course which I sent off to TWP, which they answered within a few days. After I had viewed the MTM course for the second time, I asked for and was granted access to the PFX course. I also had queries on PFX course which I sent in an email to TWP and they answered them within three days. However, on reviewing everything I had purchased and the answers to the questions that I was given, I was not satisfied with the course, and sent off an email to Craig Cobb on October 8th 21012 requesting a refund.
Craig Cobb was the only parson that I had dealt with at TWP up to that point, but instead of getting a reply to my request for a refund from him, I instead got a phone call on October 9th from a person identifying himself as Travis McKenzie. I discussed with TM at length why I was dissatisfied with the course and repeated my request for a refund to which he finally replied: “ okay then, I will give you a full refund but you must return the manuals to us in good condition “. To this I replied “I will do, just give me the address to which you want them sent “. He would not give me the address but said he would confirm it to me. Just a few hours after our conversation had ended, I sent him an email confirming what we had agreed in principle, and requesting that he confirm the address to which the manuals were to be sent. His reply to this email stated that he did not have the authority on his own to grant me a refund. If the latter is true, why the pretence in our telephone conversation that he had this authority?
On October 11th 2012, I received an email from TWP with Travis McKenzie’s name at the bottom of it saying the company owed me nothing because I had breached their terms as set out in the satisfaction guarantee, but offering me £800 as a goodwill gesture which I rejected. The breaches he identified as: (1) proceeding to the PFX course when this action was forbidden; (2) attending a mentoring session; and (3) applying for a refund out of time. I pointed out in my reply that the satisfaction guarantee (see it above consisting of 8 lines); which he reproduced in the email as substantiation; did not say the following: that proceeding to the PFX course was forbidden; or that attending a mentoring session disqualified anyone from a refund; it did not state at all any reference to the number of days by which a refund was to be requested.
In his reply in the next email to me, TM did not address the specific points made by me above but brought my attention to the wider terms and conditions, which I have shown above under that heading consisting of 159 lines.
In my reply, I pointed out the following: 1.the company’s terms and conditions are unfair because they are seeking by implication to make a customer come to a conclusion on satisfaction without seeing all the course; 2. the terms and conditions are at odds with the satisfaction guarantee because there is no time limit for a refund stated on the latter; and 3. and the instruction in the terms and conditions to watch the MTM course first was nonsensical because in order to understand it a trader needed to watch the PTE base course first.
In the last two paragraphs of my email, I stated that where there were contradictions and an implied unfair term in a contract, those terms and conditions should be set aside altogether and a fair and reasonable settlement made which is to return the purchaser the purchase price of the course.
Shortly after that, TM sent me an email saying that Nick McDonald would now be dealing with my refund, and to expect an email from him on this. NM in his first email to me took a similar line to McKenzie on everything, including repeating that I had requested a refund “well outside“ the stipulated period but upped the amount of the refund offer to £1,275.
My reply to Nick McDonald pointed out the following: two contradictions and the unfair term in TWP’s terms and conditions and satisfaction guarantee; having checked the dates, I refuted his claim that I was out of time in applying for a refund; I offered the company the possibility of having the dispute resolved in the UK Small Claims Court cheaply by written evidence without the need to attend court, whereby a judge would consider the evidence and make a decision binding on both parties; and I totally rejected the offer of £1,275 to settle the dispute.
I was satisfied that TWP’s unfair term contravened the UK’s Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, and as the company were taking a long time in replying to my last email, I did some research on the laws of New Zealand –specifically their Fair Trading Act. The Act says it is illegal for businesses to do the following: mislead customers; give false or inaccurate information; use unfair trading practices or terms. I sent off to TWP a further email outlining why the information on the company’s website contravened New Zealand’s laws.
I did get a reply from TWP to my two emails on October 22nd 2012. In it Nick McDonald apologised for saying that I had applied for a refund out of time, and acknowledged that he had not checked the dates. However, he took up the same old positions advanced by the company on all the other issues. He ended the email by saying the offer of a refund remained at £1,275.
Before I wrote a reply to this email, I paid a visit to my local CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau) to check on the law in relation to purchases made off websites. They confirmed that if there are contradictions or unfair term/terms stated on a website having a bearing on the decision to purchase, or the terms of a refund, that voids those terms and conditions. I also spoke on the OFT (Office of Fair Trading) who more or less confirmed the same thing. The lady at the OFT on hearing a summary of what I had to say said: “ this sounds like fraudulent behaviour by the company to me… have you reported it to Action Fraud? ” I confirmed to her that I hadn’t done so at that point. AF is a division of the UK police.
On October 23rd 2012, I wrote the last email in the series to TWP for the attention of NM. In it I stated the following: I accepted his apology for wrongly stating that I had applied for a refund out of time; I repeated my consistent line on all the other issues between us; I gave him the opportunity to ring me if he wanted to rather than always communicating by email; bearing in mind what the OFT had said, I warned him that if anything less that the full amount was refunded I would be reporting the matter to the fraud squad.
When I received NM’s reply on October 25th 2012, stating that only £1,500 of the £2,499 that I had requested had been credited back to my Visa card, I immediately picked up the phone and reported the matter to Action Fraud as the OFT had recommended that I do. I made a long statement to AF about the whole thing, and the UK police have issued me with a crime number.
Just to recap, I think the terms & conditions as set by the company for doing business are unenforceable for the following reasons:
• The contradiction instructing purchasers to view the MTM course first when to understand everything that followed the PTE course had to be viewed first.
• The contradictions between the basis for doing business as set out above under the headings Terms and Conditions and the separate Satisfaction Guarantee. The latter does not state at all any reason for not progressing to the PFX course, or any time limit on applying for a refund.
• Nothing stated above under the heading Terms and Conditions states that progressing to the PFX course disqualifies a person from a refund. If it did expressly state that, it would be unfair term as it would be restricting a person from viewing all he had purchased on a composite product before coming to a conclusion on satisfaction. Instead the company are relying on words like “ After completing the MTM course if you aren’t completely satisfied you must notify us in writing within 5 working days of your completion date that you wish to invoke the satisfaction guarantee. “ In other words, they are implying an unfair term and thereby confusing purchasers.
Since I joined FPA’s site, I have been emailed by FPA Discounts section about courses available on the Internet on which they have negotiated special deals. One of these courses is by an educator called Bob Iaccino who offers a full 30 day money back with his course. Another is by Charles A Floyd who offers a 60 money back guarantee with his course. Longstanding mentors such as Bill Poulos and Peter Bain offer at least 30 day money back guarantees with their courses. Trade With Precision’s basis for doing business, ignoring contradictions and unfair terms, is very poor in comparison with these.
I will make an offer to TWP to settle this case from here. The amount that I paid for the course was £2,499, less the amount already refunded of £1,500 = £999 shortfall. I has suffered disruption to my life, as outlined above, as a consequence of the information on their website being confusing at the date of purchase, and the unreasonable positions taken up by the company in processing my refund. I estimate the time wasted to be 23 man/hours @ £25 per hour = £575. The addition of these two figures: £999 + £575 = £1,574. I am therefore prepared to settle my claim if £1,574 is credited back to my Visa card.
Pharaoh
Brigadier General
- Messages
- 20,308
An offer of what I consider to be fair compensation has been sent. I recommend keeping the offer open until the end of the month.
If there is some legal issue with the terms, kwaldron has already said which offices of the UK government he can complaint to.
Unless kwaldron accepts the offer and doesn't get the 250 GBP, in my opinion, this issue is resolved.
If there is some legal issue with the terms, kwaldron has already said which offices of the UK government he can complaint to.
Unless kwaldron accepts the offer and doesn't get the 250 GBP, in my opinion, this issue is resolved.
FXCobra
Banned for uncivilized conduct
- Messages
- 337
What is this: "I estimate the time wasted to be 23 man/hours @ £25 per hour = £575"
Are you Real normally with full common sense writing?
\What you are doing is cupidity & extortion.
If I understood right, you are suggesting another full 1575 pounds above the past 1500 pounds compensation to settle this case???
As if you are playing the role of the victim and judge at the same time in this case.
Final advice, take the 250 pounds additional suggested by Pharaoh and approved by the company or go to the British Court you want and complain.
If you decide on the second choice, remember to update this case later, telling us how much you paid for the lawyer and aside fees & what is the judge decision?
AsstModerator
FPA Forums and Reviews Admin
- Messages
- 5,745
The advice of senior FPA members who are commenting on this issue seems unanimous.
As far as the FPA is concerned, this issue is resolved.
As far as the FPA is concerned, this issue is resolved.
I would like to register my dissent from your decision to close this case based on an offer I made in good faith on October 8th 2012, which was immediately rejected by TWP in the next written communication. It is strange to base an award on a lapsed offer, thereby ignoring everything that happened subsequently as chronicled above in Post # 34. This decision rewards TWP for the obstructive behavior and tactics they employed in my reasonable request for a full refund.
I will therefore pursue adequate recompense from TWP by other means. I certainly will not be telling the UK police that the case I filed on the recommendation of the Office of Fair Trading, has been resolved to my satisfaction. If Travis McKenzie and Nick McDonald show up in the UK, a country in which they both lived for several years, they will be detained by the police because of National Crime Reference Number: NFRC121000448961.
This case is far from resolved as far as I am concerned
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