UniversalMarketTrader.com + Netpicks.com beware

[yan_bo]

First of all, I want to start with the core problem and what I think is the scam: this service doesn’t warn you up front that THERE ISN’T CANCELLATION REFUND.

I attended one of their introductory webinars run by Netpicks.com. It all sounded great: they had trading system running on multiple platforms (trade station, e-signal, ninja trader and meta trader 4), they had risk and money management in place, trading plan and psychology basics. Customer service sounded professional and friendly.
The main reason for me to sign up was that they did not reveal any details about their trading system. So, I figured I will sign up, check their system and if it is not for me I will cancel and get my money back.
I signed choosing their payment plan which is 3 payments of $598 each for the total of $1794. For this amount you get lifetime license for their indicators, course, strategy, six months access to their website and live trading rooms. If after that you want to continue your membership and be able to attend their live trading rooms you pay 177/month. Otherwise, you keep your indicators and manuals and keep using them on your own. The indicators are licensed to the trading account on the trading platform you use – this means that you can’t use them on any other platforms or accounts unless they allow you.

Few thoughts about their system: the entry points are based on the crossing of couple bands derived from moving averages. The exits are calculated based on average true ranges and statistical ranges. They tend to use tick charts or 5 min charts.

Using moving averages to enter is anything but my trading style. Also, the system is made for someone who wants to follow lagging indicators and is completely new to trading. So, by the beginning of the second week I sent them a cancellation e-mail for a refund.

Eventually I received this answer:

“We do offer a Performance Guarantee but you must do the following.
To process a refund you must first learn the method then place series of at least 25 trades real or simulated.
Note in your trade log the UMT rule for taking each trade.
Forward those results to us and we will review if each trade was taken correctly and if the results are not positive we will refund your purchase.
Note that using the power of quitting each day does apply.

If you need assistance in any way please let us know.

Thanks
Brian”


I found myself BEING OBLIGED to trade so I can prove that their system is unprofitable. They completely disregarded the fact that I DO NOT LIKE AND DON’T WANT TO USE THEIR SYSTEM ON THE FIRST PLACE. In order to get my money back I now had to trade with a system I DON’T WANT TO USE!?!

I had couple phone conversations with Brian Short. He and Mark Soberman are the two guys running the service. I did explain him that nowhere in the initial subscription materials they mention that the only refund they provide is based on performance. Common practices and the law in California require businesses to warn their customers up front in case they don’t give cancellation refunds. Had I known this I would have never sign up. Although he acknowledged all of the above he insisted that I must learn and trade their system unprofitably in order to get a refund.

I would like to comment the last e-mail from Brian:

“BoYan,

Per the terms on the sales page when you ordered:

We will refund your purchase price in full, (less Set-Up Fee) if, within the first 30 days of your receipt of UMT it does not profitably and successfully trade the markets with the strategies we disclose to you.”

This is not true – their “sale page” doesn’t say anything even closer to that. No refund procedure is outlined anywhere in the initial forms!!!


“The requirements are simple. You must follow the strategy as documented and take the same official system trades you will see documented daily at the Owner's Club. We require you to document 25 consecutive trades, easily done in typically less than 2 weeks and these can be real or demo trades. You'll also need to complete a short "Return Authorization" form and provide that and your trade documentation to us within the first 30 days.”

None of these requirements are outlined anywhere on their initial subscription forms, either on their website. You would find about them only after requesting a refund.

“We have these straightforward conditions since this is a very serious and effective strategy and we need to ensure that only the traders seeking and working towards positive results will take part. We are fully confident enough to offer this refund policy after 100% disclosure of our strategy since we know if you learn the strategy and document these trades as we require that you'll be more than satisfied with the results. All we ask is you follow the strategy properly, (which should not be difficult after taking the time to learn it.)”

The fact that I don’t want to use their system doesn’t mean that I am not “working toward positive results”. It only means that I DON’T LIKE USING MOVING AVERAGES FOR TRIGGER POINTS. I am more into using price action, support/resistance areas and technical analysis instead of following bunch of lagging indicators.

“If the official results do not provide the profitable results we expect, you may request, and shall receive a full refund provided you follow these simple terms disclosed here. Your purchase is your acceptance of the Performance Guarantee.”

I have no doubt that any decent strategy with proper risk and money management will give positive results over time. The problem here is that ALL THIS IS BECOMING KNOWN AFTER I REQUESTED A REFUND.

“The Performance Guarantee is our assurance to you this is real, and we stand behind it 100%.”

Again, I have no doubt that this is real. I have only one question: Why I am learning about the Performance Guarantee rules and that there isn’t cancellation refund only after requesting a refund two weeks into my membership!!!!!!?

“I am more than happy to provide the refund when you provide the trade documentation. If you do that, then we’ll be all set. In the meantime, I will waive the next payment that is due even though it is valid until we receive the above but I’ll go ahead and stop the next two charges per our payment plan agreement assuming you will provide this information above.

Thanks.

Brian”

The last paragraph reveals the level of ignorance of these guys. It is like me coming for first time into a barber shop and after checking their catalogs deciding to get my money and visit different barber. Instead, I am told that I can get my money back only if they do my hair and I prove that their service was unsuccessful. Not only that but they will charge me the rest of the money regardless of weather or not I like to use their service. How ignorant and arrogant!!!?

This service is completely backwards. They tell you there is no cancellation refund only after you sign up. Stay away if you do not want to master trading with moving averages for $1,794.00!!!!

BoYan

 

[MarkSNetPicks]

Incorrect

Hello,

I wanted to make a quick reply/rebuttal to the above. As one of the managing partners of NetPicks I respectfully completely disagree with the claims made above.

If you get to the heart of the matter, we offer a full refund simply by the purchaser of the system showing they have in good faith learned and used the system. We do not require real trades - they can be demo/simulated so the "restrictions" are very light. Since we put in literally hours of time per new user in both one on one and group live training we have to at least ensure we do not have people who have no intention of learning the system.

The Performance Guarantee was fully disclosed in the live webinar you attended. In fact, it's one of the bullet points on the Powerpoint and we always get questions on it as well. Second, it is also directly on the sales page you ordered from -- if you would like us to forward that to you we'd be happy too. It clearly spells this out.

Nowhere have you pointed out where we said you could acquire the software, the training, attend the live sessions and have no responsibility on your part.

Many of the most expensive systems out there that go for $5,000 and up have absolutely no refund policy at all. The fact is that we actually have one but yes, we do require you to put the system through its paces. With over 3,000 people who have learned the strategies it's never going to be perfect for everyone - we understand that. Nothing is especially in trading with so many variables at work.

All you need to do is document the 25 trades, follow the strategy per the rules and you're set. I think the reason you are angry is there's a very good chance if you do that you're going to have a hard time not showing profitability if you do it per the rules. That's why we do it this way. You've got a perfect guarantee which is unusual in the course business but yes, we ask something of you as well. I think that's more than fair.

Mark Soberman
NetPicks, LLC

 

[mrelectron]

spammed

I cannot comment on any services offered by Monsieur Sobermann because I would never utilise his services.

All I can tell is that Sobermann spam's me unmercilessly from various different domain names.

Based on that alone I would not touch anything to do with Sobermann with a 10 foot pole.

It suprises me not one bit he is a dodgy operator.

Thanks
Mark.

 

[mrgummo]

Any experience with Mark's latest sales pitch, one day swing trades?

Thanks,
Ron

 

[darriusk]

"Stay away if you do not want to master trading with moving averages for $1,794.00!!!!"
As every trend following system, NetPicks systems (HVMM, ODST, SST) react in the same way - after a price makes some movement in one direction. Their entry is based mainly on CCI indicator. From that point NetPicks systems are not something special. But there are no "super systems" in the forex. You can use MA cross, CCI, MACD, "buy/sell arrows" or NetPicks entry calculators - depending on what is suitable for You.

NetPicks are honest - they provide all necessary and even more info before to make a wise decision. If You don't like "trading with moving averages and follow bunch of lagging indicators for $1,794.00!!!!" - NetPicks systems are not for You. In that case don't buy their products. As simple as that.

Below today's EURUSD trading with NetPicks SST example.

 

[Nellabelle]

I had a similar experience with Netpicks, purchasing their system Keltner Bells for $700 in 2012. They guaranteed a refund after 30 days if the system did not deliver 1000 pips profit in the month following purchase. Although I followed the system closely, trading all recommended currency pairs and taking all trades, checking the charts twice per day as advised, my 2 demo accounts both lost 10% in the first month, each trade taken with 1% risk as advised. I sent them the detailed reports of both renko block and range bar accounts and asked for a refund. Ron W. from Netpicks then informed me that the refund guarantee was not based on my results, but on theirs, and that they had achieved 1000 pips profit in the month! Their website only listed trades taken over the past few days, so there was no accountability whatsoever. I asked Ron W. to provide proof that they had achieved 1000 pips profit in the month. After a few months of prompting, he eventually sent an excel spreadsheet with a list of trades that omitted quite a few of the losing trades I had taken. All the winners were listed. Netpicks refused to give me a refund, based on their fabricated spreadsheet results. I continued to demo test the Keltner Bells system for a second month, with similar results as the first, a 10% loss. Based on this experience, I would advise all traders to avoid Netpicks like the plague, they are scammers. There is nothing fair about the way they operate.

 

[marnix]

I attended a webinar the host was Mark Soberman, anyone can see this is only for selling his stuff (the Amway way)

 

[Nellabelle]

Hi Mark Soberman,

I followed all the rules of your Keltner Bells system to the hilt, lost -10% of my 2 demo accounts 2 months in a row, emailed my MT4 detailed reports of my trades within the first month of purchase requesting a refund, which was not granted. I put the effort in, the results were poor, I sent you the results, and I was not granted a refund. When I recently read your comment above, I emailed again asking for my refund request to be reviewed. Again, it was refused. What you claim to offer above is untrue.