First of all, I want to start with the core problem and what I think is the scam: this service doesn’t warn you up front that THERE ISN’T CANCELLATION REFUND.
I attended one of their introductory webinars run by Netpicks.com. It all sounded great: they had trading system running on multiple platforms (trade station, e-signal, ninja trader and meta trader 4), they had risk and money management in place, trading plan and psychology basics. Customer service sounded professional and friendly.
The main reason for me to sign up was that they did not reveal any details about their trading system. So, I figured I will sign up, check their system and if it is not for me I will cancel and get my money back.
I signed choosing their payment plan which is 3 payments of $598 each for the total of $1794. For this amount you get lifetime license for their indicators, course, strategy, six months access to their website and live trading rooms. If after that you want to continue your membership and be able to attend their live trading rooms you pay 177/month. Otherwise, you keep your indicators and manuals and keep using them on your own. The indicators are licensed to the trading account on the trading platform you use – this means that you can’t use them on any other platforms or accounts unless they allow you.
Few thoughts about their system: the entry points are based on the crossing of couple bands derived from moving averages. The exits are calculated based on average true ranges and statistical ranges. They tend to use tick charts or 5 min charts.
Using moving averages to enter is anything but my trading style. Also, the system is made for someone who wants to follow lagging indicators and is completely new to trading. So, by the beginning of the second week I sent them a cancellation e-mail for a refund.
Eventually I received this answer:
“We do offer a Performance Guarantee but you must do the following.
To process a refund you must first learn the method then place series of at least 25 trades real or simulated.
Note in your trade log the UMT rule for taking each trade.
Forward those results to us and we will review if each trade was taken correctly and if the results are not positive we will refund your purchase.
Note that using the power of quitting each day does apply.
If you need assistance in any way please let us know.
Thanks
Brian”
I found myself BEING OBLIGED to trade so I can prove that their system is unprofitable. They completely disregarded the fact that I DO NOT LIKE AND DON’T WANT TO USE THEIR SYSTEM ON THE FIRST PLACE. In order to get my money back I now had to trade with a system I DON’T WANT TO USE!?!
I had couple phone conversations with Brian Short. He and Mark Soberman are the two guys running the service. I did explain him that nowhere in the initial subscription materials they mention that the only refund they provide is based on performance. Common practices and the law in California require businesses to warn their customers up front in case they don’t give cancellation refunds. Had I known this I would have never sign up. Although he acknowledged all of the above he insisted that I must learn and trade their system unprofitably in order to get a refund.
I would like to comment the last e-mail from Brian:
“BoYan,
Per the terms on the sales page when you ordered:
We will refund your purchase price in full, (less Set-Up Fee) if, within the first 30 days of your receipt of UMT it does not profitably and successfully trade the markets with the strategies we disclose to you.”
This is not true – their “sale page” doesn’t say anything even closer to that. No refund procedure is outlined anywhere in the initial forms!!!
“The requirements are simple. You must follow the strategy as documented and take the same official system trades you will see documented daily at the Owner's Club. We require you to document 25 consecutive trades, easily done in typically less than 2 weeks and these can be real or demo trades. You'll also need to complete a short "Return Authorization" form and provide that and your trade documentation to us within the first 30 days.”
None of these requirements are outlined anywhere on their initial subscription forms, either on their website. You would find about them only after requesting a refund.
“We have these straightforward conditions since this is a very serious and effective strategy and we need to ensure that only the traders seeking and working towards positive results will take part. We are fully confident enough to offer this refund policy after 100% disclosure of our strategy since we know if you learn the strategy and document these trades as we require that you'll be more than satisfied with the results. All we ask is you follow the strategy properly, (which should not be difficult after taking the time to learn it.)”
The fact that I don’t want to use their system doesn’t mean that I am not “working toward positive results”. It only means that I DON’T LIKE USING MOVING AVERAGES FOR TRIGGER POINTS. I am more into using price action, support/resistance areas and technical analysis instead of following bunch of lagging indicators.
“If the official results do not provide the profitable results we expect, you may request, and shall receive a full refund provided you follow these simple terms disclosed here. Your purchase is your acceptance of the Performance Guarantee.”
I have no doubt that any decent strategy with proper risk and money management will give positive results over time. The problem here is that ALL THIS IS BECOMING KNOWN AFTER I REQUESTED A REFUND.
“The Performance Guarantee is our assurance to you this is real, and we stand behind it 100%.”
Again, I have no doubt that this is real. I have only one question: Why I am learning about the Performance Guarantee rules and that there isn’t cancellation refund only after requesting a refund two weeks into my membership!!!!!!?
“I am more than happy to provide the refund when you provide the trade documentation. If you do that, then we’ll be all set. In the meantime, I will waive the next payment that is due even though it is valid until we receive the above but I’ll go ahead and stop the next two charges per our payment plan agreement assuming you will provide this information above.
Thanks.
Brian”
The last paragraph reveals the level of ignorance of these guys. It is like me coming for first time into a barber shop and after checking their catalogs deciding to get my money and visit different barber. Instead, I am told that I can get my money back only if they do my hair and I prove that their service was unsuccessful. Not only that but they will charge me the rest of the money regardless of weather or not I like to use their service. How ignorant and arrogant!!!?
This service is completely backwards. They tell you there is no cancellation refund only after you sign up. Stay away if you do not want to master trading with moving averages for $1,794.00!!!!
BoYan
I attended one of their introductory webinars run by Netpicks.com. It all sounded great: they had trading system running on multiple platforms (trade station, e-signal, ninja trader and meta trader 4), they had risk and money management in place, trading plan and psychology basics. Customer service sounded professional and friendly.
The main reason for me to sign up was that they did not reveal any details about their trading system. So, I figured I will sign up, check their system and if it is not for me I will cancel and get my money back.
I signed choosing their payment plan which is 3 payments of $598 each for the total of $1794. For this amount you get lifetime license for their indicators, course, strategy, six months access to their website and live trading rooms. If after that you want to continue your membership and be able to attend their live trading rooms you pay 177/month. Otherwise, you keep your indicators and manuals and keep using them on your own. The indicators are licensed to the trading account on the trading platform you use – this means that you can’t use them on any other platforms or accounts unless they allow you.
Few thoughts about their system: the entry points are based on the crossing of couple bands derived from moving averages. The exits are calculated based on average true ranges and statistical ranges. They tend to use tick charts or 5 min charts.
Using moving averages to enter is anything but my trading style. Also, the system is made for someone who wants to follow lagging indicators and is completely new to trading. So, by the beginning of the second week I sent them a cancellation e-mail for a refund.
Eventually I received this answer:
“We do offer a Performance Guarantee but you must do the following.
To process a refund you must first learn the method then place series of at least 25 trades real or simulated.
Note in your trade log the UMT rule for taking each trade.
Forward those results to us and we will review if each trade was taken correctly and if the results are not positive we will refund your purchase.
Note that using the power of quitting each day does apply.
If you need assistance in any way please let us know.
Thanks
Brian”
I found myself BEING OBLIGED to trade so I can prove that their system is unprofitable. They completely disregarded the fact that I DO NOT LIKE AND DON’T WANT TO USE THEIR SYSTEM ON THE FIRST PLACE. In order to get my money back I now had to trade with a system I DON’T WANT TO USE!?!
I had couple phone conversations with Brian Short. He and Mark Soberman are the two guys running the service. I did explain him that nowhere in the initial subscription materials they mention that the only refund they provide is based on performance. Common practices and the law in California require businesses to warn their customers up front in case they don’t give cancellation refunds. Had I known this I would have never sign up. Although he acknowledged all of the above he insisted that I must learn and trade their system unprofitably in order to get a refund.
I would like to comment the last e-mail from Brian:
“BoYan,
Per the terms on the sales page when you ordered:
We will refund your purchase price in full, (less Set-Up Fee) if, within the first 30 days of your receipt of UMT it does not profitably and successfully trade the markets with the strategies we disclose to you.”
This is not true – their “sale page” doesn’t say anything even closer to that. No refund procedure is outlined anywhere in the initial forms!!!
“The requirements are simple. You must follow the strategy as documented and take the same official system trades you will see documented daily at the Owner's Club. We require you to document 25 consecutive trades, easily done in typically less than 2 weeks and these can be real or demo trades. You'll also need to complete a short "Return Authorization" form and provide that and your trade documentation to us within the first 30 days.”
None of these requirements are outlined anywhere on their initial subscription forms, either on their website. You would find about them only after requesting a refund.
“We have these straightforward conditions since this is a very serious and effective strategy and we need to ensure that only the traders seeking and working towards positive results will take part. We are fully confident enough to offer this refund policy after 100% disclosure of our strategy since we know if you learn the strategy and document these trades as we require that you'll be more than satisfied with the results. All we ask is you follow the strategy properly, (which should not be difficult after taking the time to learn it.)”
The fact that I don’t want to use their system doesn’t mean that I am not “working toward positive results”. It only means that I DON’T LIKE USING MOVING AVERAGES FOR TRIGGER POINTS. I am more into using price action, support/resistance areas and technical analysis instead of following bunch of lagging indicators.
“If the official results do not provide the profitable results we expect, you may request, and shall receive a full refund provided you follow these simple terms disclosed here. Your purchase is your acceptance of the Performance Guarantee.”
I have no doubt that any decent strategy with proper risk and money management will give positive results over time. The problem here is that ALL THIS IS BECOMING KNOWN AFTER I REQUESTED A REFUND.
“The Performance Guarantee is our assurance to you this is real, and we stand behind it 100%.”
Again, I have no doubt that this is real. I have only one question: Why I am learning about the Performance Guarantee rules and that there isn’t cancellation refund only after requesting a refund two weeks into my membership!!!!!!?
“I am more than happy to provide the refund when you provide the trade documentation. If you do that, then we’ll be all set. In the meantime, I will waive the next payment that is due even though it is valid until we receive the above but I’ll go ahead and stop the next two charges per our payment plan agreement assuming you will provide this information above.
Thanks.
Brian”
The last paragraph reveals the level of ignorance of these guys. It is like me coming for first time into a barber shop and after checking their catalogs deciding to get my money and visit different barber. Instead, I am told that I can get my money back only if they do my hair and I prove that their service was unsuccessful. Not only that but they will charge me the rest of the money regardless of weather or not I like to use their service. How ignorant and arrogant!!!?
This service is completely backwards. They tell you there is no cancellation refund only after you sign up. Stay away if you do not want to master trading with moving averages for $1,794.00!!!!
BoYan