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Prime4x – More Promises than Payments
Gerard and I flipped a coin to see who would get to write this. I lost. It's probably fair. I spent more time on this than he did, and I stopped him from submitting Prime4x for a final Scam Investigations Committee vote more than once.
First, let me explain why Prime4x didn't get a scam finding a long time ago. Many brokers are willing to talk to the FPA, but tell us to go away if anyone here applies pressure for payments due to traders. Omari, Amr, Joe, and Robert from Prime4x never denied owing money to traders, and were usually willing to communicate with the FPA about issues. Since payments were happening and promises of major fixes were always claimed to only be a short time away, I delayed the scam finding. I really had hoped to avoid a Scam Finding against Prime4x. I worked very hard to avoid this. I extended deadlines when I shouldn't have. They've finally broken one promise too many. Prime4x's actions and lack of actions destroyed all of that company's credibility with me.
The reason for the scam finding now is that the FPA can't allow this to go on forever. The number of broken promises and trader complaints has kept climbing. It doesn't matter if Prime 4x has a million happy clients who can deposit and withdraw money instantly. What matters is that the FPA has been trying to get Prime4x to pay some of these clients for weeks or months. The “everyone will be paid soon” excuses date back to a promise to fix all of the issues by the beginning of August. Many of those who did get paid only got paid after Gerard or I wrote to Omari and said something like “Pay this person by Monday or there WILL be a Scam finding.” Even then, the payment would usually take an extra week or two.
I've warned Omari that his brokerage needs to be fixed. His usual response was to ask for all the warnings to be removed from Prime4x's review page each time one or two people got paid. I did tone down the warnings when this happened in the past, but each time, this was followed by a wave of new complaints.
I told Omari that Prime4x was damaging people's lives. People shouldn't put money into forex accounts that they can't afford to lose to the market or to a bad broker, but they do. Many of those trying to withdraw money are doing so because they need the money. In once case, a trader's niece was in jail for political reasons and the trader needed as much cash as possible to get her bailed out. That should have taken one email to fix. It took a dozens of emails. There were others with stories of dire need. Some of the stories may have been made up to increase the pressure on Prime4x to process withdrawals. Traders should never have to feel the need to do this. The money in an account belongs to a trader. Unless a broker has clear evidence of a TOS violation, there should never be any reason for a withdrawal to not be processed quickly after a single request.
Some, but not all of Prime4x's problems are with IBs. They allowed some IBs to handle client deposits and withdrawals. This is a dangerous practice, since it can easily lead to the broker and the IB each blaming the other while leaving the client with no money. One Iranian IB, Fx Persia, went too far and launched a denial of service attack against Prime's website. I had to explain carefully that no matter what Prime4x did or did not do, a denial of service attack is a criminal action that won't help anyone in the long run. I managed to negotiate a truce to get Prime4x and Fx Persia back to negotiating instead of attacking each other and have been in constant contact with Fx Persia since then. Later, that IB met with one of Prime4x's representatives and a deal was hammered out. Fx Persia and Prime4x each agreed to pay a part of the money owed to clients. Fx Persia payed. Prime 4x decided to stop sending payments to clients through Fx Persia and asked all the clients to get accounts outside of Iran. Several clients already had bank accounts like that. The account info was sent to Prime4x, but none have been paid yet as I write this.
One IB in Nigeria reports being jailed after a client filed charges over money not paid to him against his local IB. It's a lot easier to force your local IB into jail than to prosecute a company in another country. Gerard and I are still waiting to hear if even one client of that IB was paid. An Indonesian IB reports that some of his clients are threatening violence against him if they are not paid soon. Who knew that being an IB could be so dangerous?
I finally had to do a mailing to the membership warning that Prime 4x had serious issues. I also created a thread for Prime4x clients to list withdrawal problems and to report successful withdrawals. Between emails, that thread, and complaints in the reviews, Omari made a spreadsheet of some of the overdue payments.
At first, Omari promised that Prime 4x about to finally pay those traders in November. Then he had to wait for a banking holiday to end and would pay them the following week. One or two people got paid and the rest continued to report no payments. I told Omari to pay them immediately. He made a new spreadsheet. Eventually, Robert emailed 19 of those people and promised that payments would be on the way within 48 hours. Two days later, new complaints came in. Omari explained that Robert meant 48 business hours. After 2 weeks of asking Omari why those people kept complaining about not getting paid, he promised payments would be sent. Some were told that bank wires were on the way. Others were told that Prime4x no longer sent money by Liberty Reserve and were asked to provide banking info. Six didn't get an email.
Someone else was told two days ago that MoneyBookers was acceptable for a withdrawal. Omari just told him that Prime4x doesn't process withdrawals using MB anymore. It now appears that the only way to try get money out of an account with Prime4x is through bank wire. So far, I have no explanation from Omari about why Prime4x no longer supports LR or MB. I checked the website before I started writing this and Liberty Reserve was prominently featured. I also asked a Prime 4x livechat representative if Prime took LR for deposits and withdrawals. That person said that Prime does process both deposits and withdrawals via LR.
The two paragraphs below in italics are speculation on my part. I can't prove or disprove most of it, but something isn't right at Prime4x. I can only think of so many explanations.
Prime4x seems to have either given up or lost the ability to use Liberty Reserve and Money Bookers. Another possible explanation is that they've stopped using instant payment methods and will use Christmas as an excuse for why promised bank wires aren't being delivered in a timely fashion.
Prime4x either can't pay traders for some reason or Prime4x won't pay traders for some reason. It looks to me like they are short on cash and are desperately stalling for time. Maybe they are trying to get money from other sources. Considering the amount of money a broker as large as Prime 4x should be making on spread from all those client transactions, I really wonder how they could be having such big financial problems. If Prime4x.com won't pay clients, then I'd really rather not contemplate what's really going on behind the scenes at Prime 4x.
If Omari would like to make a public statement about what is really going on at Prime 4x, I'll be happy to post it in this thread for him.
There is only so much the FPA can do in a case like this. I've helped a number of traders get paid, but each payment is like pulling teeth. Lately, I've spending more time trying to fix problems at Prime4x than I am dealing with FPA issues. Sorry Omari, but I'm done being your secretary. I work for the FPA, not for Prime4x. I shouldn't have to send you multiple reminders of every overdue payment. I shouldn't have to remind you to reply to your clients. I've already told you what you need to do to fix your brokerage. Start with not making promises that you can't or won't keep. Then pay people in a reasonable amount of time when they first request it. If there's a reason for a delay, give your clients the real reason and an estimate of how long it will take. If you can't pay by then, email the client first instead of waiting for them to ask why they are still waiting.
Omari, you know where the reviews are. You know where the thread for Prime4x complaints is. If you really want the Scam Finding lifted, pay everyone who's posted in those places, email them after the money is delivered and CC me. If a specific account needs to be checked, check it in a reasonable time. If Prime 4x ever gets caught up on overdue payments, I'll be happy sit down with the Scam Investigations Committee and discuss it. Until then, the FPA has to warn people that placing money with Prime 4x can easily cut off access to that money.
FPA Scam Finding against Prime4x.com
List of client complaints against Prime 4x. Report Prime4x successful and unsuccessful withdrawals here.
Original warning message sent about Prime4x.com
FPA Review Page for Prime4x
Gerard and I flipped a coin to see who would get to write this. I lost. It's probably fair. I spent more time on this than he did, and I stopped him from submitting Prime4x for a final Scam Investigations Committee vote more than once.
First, let me explain why Prime4x didn't get a scam finding a long time ago. Many brokers are willing to talk to the FPA, but tell us to go away if anyone here applies pressure for payments due to traders. Omari, Amr, Joe, and Robert from Prime4x never denied owing money to traders, and were usually willing to communicate with the FPA about issues. Since payments were happening and promises of major fixes were always claimed to only be a short time away, I delayed the scam finding. I really had hoped to avoid a Scam Finding against Prime4x. I worked very hard to avoid this. I extended deadlines when I shouldn't have. They've finally broken one promise too many. Prime4x's actions and lack of actions destroyed all of that company's credibility with me.
The reason for the scam finding now is that the FPA can't allow this to go on forever. The number of broken promises and trader complaints has kept climbing. It doesn't matter if Prime 4x has a million happy clients who can deposit and withdraw money instantly. What matters is that the FPA has been trying to get Prime4x to pay some of these clients for weeks or months. The “everyone will be paid soon” excuses date back to a promise to fix all of the issues by the beginning of August. Many of those who did get paid only got paid after Gerard or I wrote to Omari and said something like “Pay this person by Monday or there WILL be a Scam finding.” Even then, the payment would usually take an extra week or two.
I've warned Omari that his brokerage needs to be fixed. His usual response was to ask for all the warnings to be removed from Prime4x's review page each time one or two people got paid. I did tone down the warnings when this happened in the past, but each time, this was followed by a wave of new complaints.
I told Omari that Prime4x was damaging people's lives. People shouldn't put money into forex accounts that they can't afford to lose to the market or to a bad broker, but they do. Many of those trying to withdraw money are doing so because they need the money. In once case, a trader's niece was in jail for political reasons and the trader needed as much cash as possible to get her bailed out. That should have taken one email to fix. It took a dozens of emails. There were others with stories of dire need. Some of the stories may have been made up to increase the pressure on Prime4x to process withdrawals. Traders should never have to feel the need to do this. The money in an account belongs to a trader. Unless a broker has clear evidence of a TOS violation, there should never be any reason for a withdrawal to not be processed quickly after a single request.
Some, but not all of Prime4x's problems are with IBs. They allowed some IBs to handle client deposits and withdrawals. This is a dangerous practice, since it can easily lead to the broker and the IB each blaming the other while leaving the client with no money. One Iranian IB, Fx Persia, went too far and launched a denial of service attack against Prime's website. I had to explain carefully that no matter what Prime4x did or did not do, a denial of service attack is a criminal action that won't help anyone in the long run. I managed to negotiate a truce to get Prime4x and Fx Persia back to negotiating instead of attacking each other and have been in constant contact with Fx Persia since then. Later, that IB met with one of Prime4x's representatives and a deal was hammered out. Fx Persia and Prime4x each agreed to pay a part of the money owed to clients. Fx Persia payed. Prime 4x decided to stop sending payments to clients through Fx Persia and asked all the clients to get accounts outside of Iran. Several clients already had bank accounts like that. The account info was sent to Prime4x, but none have been paid yet as I write this.
One IB in Nigeria reports being jailed after a client filed charges over money not paid to him against his local IB. It's a lot easier to force your local IB into jail than to prosecute a company in another country. Gerard and I are still waiting to hear if even one client of that IB was paid. An Indonesian IB reports that some of his clients are threatening violence against him if they are not paid soon. Who knew that being an IB could be so dangerous?
I finally had to do a mailing to the membership warning that Prime 4x had serious issues. I also created a thread for Prime4x clients to list withdrawal problems and to report successful withdrawals. Between emails, that thread, and complaints in the reviews, Omari made a spreadsheet of some of the overdue payments.
At first, Omari promised that Prime 4x about to finally pay those traders in November. Then he had to wait for a banking holiday to end and would pay them the following week. One or two people got paid and the rest continued to report no payments. I told Omari to pay them immediately. He made a new spreadsheet. Eventually, Robert emailed 19 of those people and promised that payments would be on the way within 48 hours. Two days later, new complaints came in. Omari explained that Robert meant 48 business hours. After 2 weeks of asking Omari why those people kept complaining about not getting paid, he promised payments would be sent. Some were told that bank wires were on the way. Others were told that Prime4x no longer sent money by Liberty Reserve and were asked to provide banking info. Six didn't get an email.
Someone else was told two days ago that MoneyBookers was acceptable for a withdrawal. Omari just told him that Prime4x doesn't process withdrawals using MB anymore. It now appears that the only way to try get money out of an account with Prime4x is through bank wire. So far, I have no explanation from Omari about why Prime4x no longer supports LR or MB. I checked the website before I started writing this and Liberty Reserve was prominently featured. I also asked a Prime 4x livechat representative if Prime took LR for deposits and withdrawals. That person said that Prime does process both deposits and withdrawals via LR.
The two paragraphs below in italics are speculation on my part. I can't prove or disprove most of it, but something isn't right at Prime4x. I can only think of so many explanations.
Prime4x seems to have either given up or lost the ability to use Liberty Reserve and Money Bookers. Another possible explanation is that they've stopped using instant payment methods and will use Christmas as an excuse for why promised bank wires aren't being delivered in a timely fashion.
Prime4x either can't pay traders for some reason or Prime4x won't pay traders for some reason. It looks to me like they are short on cash and are desperately stalling for time. Maybe they are trying to get money from other sources. Considering the amount of money a broker as large as Prime 4x should be making on spread from all those client transactions, I really wonder how they could be having such big financial problems. If Prime4x.com won't pay clients, then I'd really rather not contemplate what's really going on behind the scenes at Prime 4x.
If Omari would like to make a public statement about what is really going on at Prime 4x, I'll be happy to post it in this thread for him.
There is only so much the FPA can do in a case like this. I've helped a number of traders get paid, but each payment is like pulling teeth. Lately, I've spending more time trying to fix problems at Prime4x than I am dealing with FPA issues. Sorry Omari, but I'm done being your secretary. I work for the FPA, not for Prime4x. I shouldn't have to send you multiple reminders of every overdue payment. I shouldn't have to remind you to reply to your clients. I've already told you what you need to do to fix your brokerage. Start with not making promises that you can't or won't keep. Then pay people in a reasonable amount of time when they first request it. If there's a reason for a delay, give your clients the real reason and an estimate of how long it will take. If you can't pay by then, email the client first instead of waiting for them to ask why they are still waiting.
Omari, you know where the reviews are. You know where the thread for Prime4x complaints is. If you really want the Scam Finding lifted, pay everyone who's posted in those places, email them after the money is delivered and CC me. If a specific account needs to be checked, check it in a reasonable time. If Prime 4x ever gets caught up on overdue payments, I'll be happy sit down with the Scam Investigations Committee and discuss it. Until then, the FPA has to warn people that placing money with Prime 4x can easily cut off access to that money.
FPA Scam Finding against Prime4x.com
List of client complaints against Prime 4x. Report Prime4x successful and unsuccessful withdrawals here.
Original warning message sent about Prime4x.com
FPA Review Page for Prime4x
Joe
