Pharaoh
Brigadier General
- Messages
- 20,313
Septemberrain,
Although Ponzis and other forms of account mismanagement are a subject I've studied extensively, I can't be certain exactly when and where things went off the rails in this case.
For example, a very large number of Ponzi schemes really started out as legitimate investments. Then, either due to market shifts wrecking a great trading strategy, violation of pre-established trading rules (VERY common when a trader panics), or over confidence early in the game leading to the inability to meet promises made to clients, the firm/trader lies about results and "borrows" some money from deposits to pay profits. Bernard Madoff did this. Even Charles Ponzi himself did this - his original arbitrage scheme really worked, but he couldn't resist all the investor money being thrown at him and there was a size limit to his plan.
At this point, only ASIC and the people behind Courtenay have the facts of when what at least appeared to be a legitimate business ceased being legitimate. It may have been planned from the start or may have been something which a real investment company devolved into over time.
For now, follow ASIC's request. Send them anything you've got. Dig for ANY info you have on where you sent money to and where any money you received came from. I hope ASIC has frozen all of the accounts, but there is always a chance that one or more slipped through the cracks.
Mightyowl,
I find it unusual that the guys in charge are represented, while the companies themselves are not. This makes it seem like the people running the companies consider the companies to be expendable. If I was an investor, this would not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Then again, being invested in a company which earned a dedicated investigation page on ASIC's site would also make me worry.
What you say about interest going up from 1.5% all the way to 7.5% per month is another warning sign. If I open a savings account at my bank, I certainly expect to get more interest with a $200k account than an account with only $1000 in it. The upper rate is 5 times the lower rate. As a comparison, if the rate a bank paid on a $1000 deposit was 1.5% per year, I'd be very surprised if the same bank jumped that all the way to 7.5% per year for a $200k deposit. The bank's savings program, just like any pooled investment, would want to encourage larger deposits, but that's an unusually wide spread of interest for a yearly rate and an impossible safe repayment on a monthly rate. That sort of jump in the percent interest is more common in HYIP style Ponzi websites than in Ponzi's attempting to act as registered corporations with offices and insurance plans.
I'd love to know how the 15% plan worked. I'm just speculating but I'll bet it required being in the 7.5% plan and recruiting others in at that same level. If you find out, please post it.
As above, send ALL info to ASIC. While ASIC has a dedicated page asking for this information, anyone implying that people shouldn't share information with ASIC does not have your best interests at heart.
Although Ponzis and other forms of account mismanagement are a subject I've studied extensively, I can't be certain exactly when and where things went off the rails in this case.
For example, a very large number of Ponzi schemes really started out as legitimate investments. Then, either due to market shifts wrecking a great trading strategy, violation of pre-established trading rules (VERY common when a trader panics), or over confidence early in the game leading to the inability to meet promises made to clients, the firm/trader lies about results and "borrows" some money from deposits to pay profits. Bernard Madoff did this. Even Charles Ponzi himself did this - his original arbitrage scheme really worked, but he couldn't resist all the investor money being thrown at him and there was a size limit to his plan.
At this point, only ASIC and the people behind Courtenay have the facts of when what at least appeared to be a legitimate business ceased being legitimate. It may have been planned from the start or may have been something which a real investment company devolved into over time.
For now, follow ASIC's request. Send them anything you've got. Dig for ANY info you have on where you sent money to and where any money you received came from. I hope ASIC has frozen all of the accounts, but there is always a chance that one or more slipped through the cracks.
Mightyowl,
I find it unusual that the guys in charge are represented, while the companies themselves are not. This makes it seem like the people running the companies consider the companies to be expendable. If I was an investor, this would not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Then again, being invested in a company which earned a dedicated investigation page on ASIC's site would also make me worry.
What you say about interest going up from 1.5% all the way to 7.5% per month is another warning sign. If I open a savings account at my bank, I certainly expect to get more interest with a $200k account than an account with only $1000 in it. The upper rate is 5 times the lower rate. As a comparison, if the rate a bank paid on a $1000 deposit was 1.5% per year, I'd be very surprised if the same bank jumped that all the way to 7.5% per year for a $200k deposit. The bank's savings program, just like any pooled investment, would want to encourage larger deposits, but that's an unusually wide spread of interest for a yearly rate and an impossible safe repayment on a monthly rate. That sort of jump in the percent interest is more common in HYIP style Ponzi websites than in Ponzi's attempting to act as registered corporations with offices and insurance plans.
I'd love to know how the 15% plan worked. I'm just speculating but I'll bet it required being in the 7.5% plan and recruiting others in at that same level. If you find out, please post it.
As above, send ALL info to ASIC. While ASIC has a dedicated page asking for this information, anyone implying that people shouldn't share information with ASIC does not have your best interests at heart.
