Tickmill
Tickmill Representative
- Messages
- 100
Dear Deltoid88,
We appreciate you are frustrated, however the responses provided to some of your points above should provide some clarity on the matter.
-There is only one true WTI spot price.
There is no central trading venue or rulebook to form a single global spot (cash) price for commodities, such as oil. Spot prices are derived from the underlying relevant commodity futures contract by removing the implied holding costs.
-That price must reflect Futures contract prices, and that means WTI spot price must be very close to Futures contract price regardless of LP, or model they use. If model LP uses is correct, then WTI spot price is going to be very close to Futures contract prices.
Incorrect – If WTI spot price must be very close to Futures contract prices, then the Cash WTI price at all brokers should have went to negative given that the WTI Crude Oil CME May Futures contract reached $-40. Yet none of the brokers you mentioned had a price close to $-40.
-Small differences due to different trading conditions and different models from LP are expected and tolerable. That means SMALL DIFFERENCES are allowed, not large differences! Let's see what price for WTI Tickmill offers at the moment. It is 10.90$ while at the moment Futures contract prices are all above 31.50$: NYMEX WTI Crude Oil Futures & Options. This is undeniable proof that Tickmill offers completely fake and invalid price for WTI.
In normal market conditions the differences are expected to be small, but in extreme contango and extreme volatility conditions prices can vary significantly depending on the method of pricing and the underlying futures contract used as a reference.
-It is irrelevant if they manipulate price, if their LP manipulate price, or simply their LP uses wrong model for WTI spot price. End result is the same, price is wrong, and that is only what matters to trader. I trade price, I need correct number. That is whole point of trading, we are trading numbers here, prices that are completely transparent, prices that can be checked anytime so that price manipulation like this one is impossible! Where is your respond to this Tickmill? I gave you undeniable proof that your price is wrong, what are you waiting for in changing your LP immediately?! You are aware that price is wrong, but you keep it anyway, that is fraudulent activity and you are going to pay consequences of your doings.
Tickmill does not interfere with the pricing of its Oil products. Tickmill simply transmits the pricing coming from the Liquidity provider to its clients. We follow a strict due diligence process in picking our liquidity providers. In the case of Oil pricing, our LP is a highly reputable FCA regulated company that is listed on LSE. Changing Liquidity providers is not a simple procedure. Client positions are held with the LP that they opened the position with. You can’t open positions with LPX and close it with LPY at a different price.
-Tickmill provided 2 brokers that has same price for WTI like they do. That is not proof that WTI spot price is correct, that only proves some other brokers has same wrong price like Tickmill. As respond to this invalid argument from Tickmill I am providing list of 9 brokers which has true WTI price over 31.50$ at the moment I write this. With all these brokers I have account with and can see price action on WTI in MT4, they provide real WTI spot price, not fake one like Tickmill. Where is your respond to this, Tickmill?! Either you are right with your price, and two other brokers you mentioned, or I am right and 9 other brokers I mentioned. We can not be all right, someone is wrong, and it looks like it is you!
As mentioned earlier, there is no right and wrong WTI Cash prices. Just as Tickmill, CMC, Admiral, and Investing.com are streaming current price ay $11.50; others like NBFX, LMFX, AMA , and FXOpen are streaming prices at $31.50. Additionally, some like ISPrime are streaming cash WTI prices at $100+
-That is also proof of fraudulent activity. You must offer me same model I opened my positions with to be able to close them as well. I did not trade December Futures price, I traded WTI spot price! You have no right to do that! You changed instrument I was trading with, that is consequence of changing your pricing model! Where is your respond to this, Tickmill? You are not allowed to do that! I was trading WTI spot price based on regular model, and then you have changed model for pricing WTI to December 2020 Futures contract without my acceptance.
Once again, Tickmill does not interfere with the pricing of its Oil products. Tickmill simply transmits the pricing coming from the Liquidity provider to its clients. Every month close to rollover of the Futures contract, the futures contract used as a reference for spot WTI is changed. Under normal circumstances, the switch would have been made to the June Contract, but as you are aware, unprecedented market events resulted the underlying contract for May settling at a historically low price below zero on 20/04/2020 and caused general dislocation in the oil market. Pricing was initially switched to June on 20/04/2020, but action was subsequently taken to rebase the price from December’s future on 21/04/2020 due to two main factors:
The first relates to the LP being able to continue to offer a cash price of value and to avoid having to quote negative prices if market dislocation continue in the coming months. In recent days, the price of the June contract dropped to lows of around $6.60 from $22 when May expired. If the price continues to fall that could lead to another negative settlement price of that contract and potentially impact July’s future in the same way. For this reason, it was not practical from a commercial perspective to continue to price directly from June’s future or to offer a product, which could potentially be priced at or below zero. We would also not consider it fair for our customers to be exposed to the potential risk factors applicable if the price fell to those levels.
The second factor concerns the holding rate applicable to the product. At the time of the initial switch, the June contract was trading at around $22.50 – this was almost double the price of the cash. Given that the two prices would converge over a period of just over one month due to our pricing model, a holding rate of around 780% would need to be applied to offset the artificial gain or loss that would be realised because of that factor.
-My positions were opened BEFORE they said WTI spot price will be based on December Futures contract. That means you have changed instrument I was trading with.
Incorrect – According to our records your positions were opened on 22/04/2020, 1 day AFTER the price of our Cash WTI was rebase to the December Futures Contract
-I am quoting your words " Cash WTI prices will gradually converge to December 2020 contract prices at a moderate pace which will protect clients from extreme volatility and significantly reduce the holding costs " This is completely false! Since their model of pricing follow relative change of December Futures contract, but BASE value is much less then value of December Futures contract ( price was around 8.5$ when they announce this change, while December Futures Contract was around 26$ ) that means they decreased movement of price to December Futures contract, and not only that, but approximately 3 times more then that! That is what their wrong model is doing to price! Price action is crippled not only to December Futures contract, but even 3 times more then that! That is what is happening in reality, there is NO converging price to December Futures, but opposite. If price of WTI December Futures contract increase for 100% to 52$, their price is going to climb only to 17$ from 8.5$! Diiference between prices increases if price of WTI December Futures increases, not converging like they say! Convergence is happening only if price of December Futures contract falls, not if it rises! Proof that is true I am saying is when you compare price action for December Futures price and WTI price they offer you get approximately 3 times slower rise in price then in December Futures contract, completely unacceptable. WRONG model! So, they crippled movement of price to even 3 times less then already weak price movement of December Futures contract while at same time charging very large long positions swaps of 6.65 points per day! How that can be reduction of holding costs, Tickmill?!
When the pricing of the Cash Index is based on a Futures contract, it doesn’t mean that Cash Price = Futures Price. It means that the current Cash daily movement mimics the daily movement that the underlying Futures contract the Cash pricing is based on.
The Cash price will converge daily towards to Futures price during rollover (and that’s why swaps are charged on Cash products, but there’s no swap charge on Futures product).
-Where is your respond to this, Tickmill?! They are offering price model in close only mode which provides 0 chances to trader to make significant profit, only loss can be made because of swaps! You are obligated to change your price of WTI immediately! What are you waiting for, Tickmill?!
Clients that are short WTI are gaining swaps the same way clients that are long are being charged swaps on WTI. As explained earlier, the swap cost covers the increase in price every night at rollover in order for the Cash WTI to converge with the December 2020 Futures contract.
-Yesterday WTI spot price made new high on 33.10$, I am showing Exness price action of WTI as proof. So now you owe me even more money because I am not able to close my positions on true WTI spot price.
Here is calculation:
Order # 16869944 Profit = (closing price/opening price - 1) x opening price x size = ( 33.10/7.65 - 1) x 7.65 x 650 = $16543;
Order # 16870020 Profit = ( 33.1/7.89 - 1) x 7.89 x 40 = $1008;
Order # 16893591 Profit = ( 33.10/8.11 -1) x 8.11 x 650 = $16244.
So, my total profit is 16543+1008+16244=$33 795. I demand amount of $33 795 to be funded to my trading account #3033967 as soon as possible. More you wait, more expensive is going to be for you.
No amount will be re-funded
For any additional assistance you may need, please refer to our support team.
We appreciate you are frustrated, however the responses provided to some of your points above should provide some clarity on the matter.
-There is only one true WTI spot price.
There is no central trading venue or rulebook to form a single global spot (cash) price for commodities, such as oil. Spot prices are derived from the underlying relevant commodity futures contract by removing the implied holding costs.
-That price must reflect Futures contract prices, and that means WTI spot price must be very close to Futures contract price regardless of LP, or model they use. If model LP uses is correct, then WTI spot price is going to be very close to Futures contract prices.
Incorrect – If WTI spot price must be very close to Futures contract prices, then the Cash WTI price at all brokers should have went to negative given that the WTI Crude Oil CME May Futures contract reached $-40. Yet none of the brokers you mentioned had a price close to $-40.
-Small differences due to different trading conditions and different models from LP are expected and tolerable. That means SMALL DIFFERENCES are allowed, not large differences! Let's see what price for WTI Tickmill offers at the moment. It is 10.90$ while at the moment Futures contract prices are all above 31.50$: NYMEX WTI Crude Oil Futures & Options. This is undeniable proof that Tickmill offers completely fake and invalid price for WTI.
In normal market conditions the differences are expected to be small, but in extreme contango and extreme volatility conditions prices can vary significantly depending on the method of pricing and the underlying futures contract used as a reference.
-It is irrelevant if they manipulate price, if their LP manipulate price, or simply their LP uses wrong model for WTI spot price. End result is the same, price is wrong, and that is only what matters to trader. I trade price, I need correct number. That is whole point of trading, we are trading numbers here, prices that are completely transparent, prices that can be checked anytime so that price manipulation like this one is impossible! Where is your respond to this Tickmill? I gave you undeniable proof that your price is wrong, what are you waiting for in changing your LP immediately?! You are aware that price is wrong, but you keep it anyway, that is fraudulent activity and you are going to pay consequences of your doings.
Tickmill does not interfere with the pricing of its Oil products. Tickmill simply transmits the pricing coming from the Liquidity provider to its clients. We follow a strict due diligence process in picking our liquidity providers. In the case of Oil pricing, our LP is a highly reputable FCA regulated company that is listed on LSE. Changing Liquidity providers is not a simple procedure. Client positions are held with the LP that they opened the position with. You can’t open positions with LPX and close it with LPY at a different price.
-Tickmill provided 2 brokers that has same price for WTI like they do. That is not proof that WTI spot price is correct, that only proves some other brokers has same wrong price like Tickmill. As respond to this invalid argument from Tickmill I am providing list of 9 brokers which has true WTI price over 31.50$ at the moment I write this. With all these brokers I have account with and can see price action on WTI in MT4, they provide real WTI spot price, not fake one like Tickmill. Where is your respond to this, Tickmill?! Either you are right with your price, and two other brokers you mentioned, or I am right and 9 other brokers I mentioned. We can not be all right, someone is wrong, and it looks like it is you!
As mentioned earlier, there is no right and wrong WTI Cash prices. Just as Tickmill, CMC, Admiral, and Investing.com are streaming current price ay $11.50; others like NBFX, LMFX, AMA , and FXOpen are streaming prices at $31.50. Additionally, some like ISPrime are streaming cash WTI prices at $100+
-That is also proof of fraudulent activity. You must offer me same model I opened my positions with to be able to close them as well. I did not trade December Futures price, I traded WTI spot price! You have no right to do that! You changed instrument I was trading with, that is consequence of changing your pricing model! Where is your respond to this, Tickmill? You are not allowed to do that! I was trading WTI spot price based on regular model, and then you have changed model for pricing WTI to December 2020 Futures contract without my acceptance.
Once again, Tickmill does not interfere with the pricing of its Oil products. Tickmill simply transmits the pricing coming from the Liquidity provider to its clients. Every month close to rollover of the Futures contract, the futures contract used as a reference for spot WTI is changed. Under normal circumstances, the switch would have been made to the June Contract, but as you are aware, unprecedented market events resulted the underlying contract for May settling at a historically low price below zero on 20/04/2020 and caused general dislocation in the oil market. Pricing was initially switched to June on 20/04/2020, but action was subsequently taken to rebase the price from December’s future on 21/04/2020 due to two main factors:
The first relates to the LP being able to continue to offer a cash price of value and to avoid having to quote negative prices if market dislocation continue in the coming months. In recent days, the price of the June contract dropped to lows of around $6.60 from $22 when May expired. If the price continues to fall that could lead to another negative settlement price of that contract and potentially impact July’s future in the same way. For this reason, it was not practical from a commercial perspective to continue to price directly from June’s future or to offer a product, which could potentially be priced at or below zero. We would also not consider it fair for our customers to be exposed to the potential risk factors applicable if the price fell to those levels.
The second factor concerns the holding rate applicable to the product. At the time of the initial switch, the June contract was trading at around $22.50 – this was almost double the price of the cash. Given that the two prices would converge over a period of just over one month due to our pricing model, a holding rate of around 780% would need to be applied to offset the artificial gain or loss that would be realised because of that factor.
-My positions were opened BEFORE they said WTI spot price will be based on December Futures contract. That means you have changed instrument I was trading with.
Incorrect – According to our records your positions were opened on 22/04/2020, 1 day AFTER the price of our Cash WTI was rebase to the December Futures Contract
-I am quoting your words " Cash WTI prices will gradually converge to December 2020 contract prices at a moderate pace which will protect clients from extreme volatility and significantly reduce the holding costs " This is completely false! Since their model of pricing follow relative change of December Futures contract, but BASE value is much less then value of December Futures contract ( price was around 8.5$ when they announce this change, while December Futures Contract was around 26$ ) that means they decreased movement of price to December Futures contract, and not only that, but approximately 3 times more then that! That is what their wrong model is doing to price! Price action is crippled not only to December Futures contract, but even 3 times more then that! That is what is happening in reality, there is NO converging price to December Futures, but opposite. If price of WTI December Futures contract increase for 100% to 52$, their price is going to climb only to 17$ from 8.5$! Diiference between prices increases if price of WTI December Futures increases, not converging like they say! Convergence is happening only if price of December Futures contract falls, not if it rises! Proof that is true I am saying is when you compare price action for December Futures price and WTI price they offer you get approximately 3 times slower rise in price then in December Futures contract, completely unacceptable. WRONG model! So, they crippled movement of price to even 3 times less then already weak price movement of December Futures contract while at same time charging very large long positions swaps of 6.65 points per day! How that can be reduction of holding costs, Tickmill?!
When the pricing of the Cash Index is based on a Futures contract, it doesn’t mean that Cash Price = Futures Price. It means that the current Cash daily movement mimics the daily movement that the underlying Futures contract the Cash pricing is based on.
The Cash price will converge daily towards to Futures price during rollover (and that’s why swaps are charged on Cash products, but there’s no swap charge on Futures product).
-Where is your respond to this, Tickmill?! They are offering price model in close only mode which provides 0 chances to trader to make significant profit, only loss can be made because of swaps! You are obligated to change your price of WTI immediately! What are you waiting for, Tickmill?!
Clients that are short WTI are gaining swaps the same way clients that are long are being charged swaps on WTI. As explained earlier, the swap cost covers the increase in price every night at rollover in order for the Cash WTI to converge with the December 2020 Futures contract.
-Yesterday WTI spot price made new high on 33.10$, I am showing Exness price action of WTI as proof. So now you owe me even more money because I am not able to close my positions on true WTI spot price.
Here is calculation:
Order # 16869944 Profit = (closing price/opening price - 1) x opening price x size = ( 33.10/7.65 - 1) x 7.65 x 650 = $16543;
Order # 16870020 Profit = ( 33.1/7.89 - 1) x 7.89 x 40 = $1008;
Order # 16893591 Profit = ( 33.10/8.11 -1) x 8.11 x 650 = $16244.
So, my total profit is 16543+1008+16244=$33 795. I demand amount of $33 795 to be funded to my trading account #3033967 as soon as possible. More you wait, more expensive is going to be for you.
No amount will be re-funded
For any additional assistance you may need, please refer to our support team.