Chaz McHan
Corporal
- Messages
- 74
To me, no. If you are an individual taking "investments", you do not continue to receive funds when you can't pay your debts.
Wouldn't this insure that your money is gone for good? If he can't do what he does to make money, then he can't overcome his debts, right?
There is something fundamentally wrong with your investment scheme if this is what you do.
Well, maybe so. At least it might be an indication to him that he should get into another line of work... and an indication to his potential investors that he might not be the right guy for the job.
You cannot be illiquid or you are running a ponzi scheme.
No, that's not the definition of a Ponzi scheme.
What it seems like you are saying here is that something happened to put him in the red. The escape from the red is to bring in new investor money. Is this not Ponzi defined?
No, not quite. A Ponzi scheme is defined by paying old investors with new investors' money. Bringing in new investor money to earn money for THOSE investors and then paying debts with his own portion of the earnings (contracted profit-sharing, commissions, whatever) is legitimate. I DO NOT know that this is what Wall is doing, though. Again, I am just playing Devil's advocate in order to see if my "what ifs" hold up to your scrutiny.
Once Madoff was in the red, if he called it quits, returned what he could and went to prison then think how many lives he would not have destroyed.
No, Madoff never invested the investment money. He paid earlier investors with later investors' money. No investments. No trading. Just stealing.
Instead he did what it seems you propose Danny to do, kept bringing in new money on the hopes he could "turn it around." Maybe I am misunderstanding you but I do not agree with this logic and I can not in good conscious stand by while other money is brought in from someone else to pay me. The pyramid will collapse somewhere.
Agreed, if that's what he's doing. JAIL! JAIL! JAIL! My question is: Is it possible that he's looking for more investment money from which to earn profits for his new investors and EARN his own legitimate, disclosed portion, and then in turn use his OWN portion to pay off his own debts?
So... "2. If he was taking other people's money and then paying you (and the others) with it, then he would be running a Ponzi scheme. The fact that he's taken in more money (what his job entails) and not made the payments (for possibly real reasons) doesn't automatically spell fraud or scam to me."
My point there was that if it was Ponzi, he'd have paid you already from new investor money, right? He didn't use that new money to pay you, but (is it possible?) to invest for those new investors. This might further explain his face-saving and time-buying lies/excuses. Again, just hypothetical.
What could the real reason be? It all got stolen? Lost it in a a bad trade? Regardless, the funds were GUARANTEED to be returned. If you do not hold sufficient funds to guarantee you can return what you took in, when that is what you state you will do, you are scamming.
OK... I can't think of any possible or even hypothetical defense for this part. You are 100% correct here. I advise investors to RUN FAR AND FAST away from investment "managers" making profit guarantees. It's irresponsible and unethical... and in some place and under some conditions, ILLEGAL, even felonious.
Guaranteed returned funds should not be held in such a way that they can be lost. Stolen??? All his money from a errand runner?? That is a joke or this guy is a complete idiot to place ALL his money with an errand runner.
Again, I agree 100%. Was the guarantee in writing with a specific date? These elements make it a slam dunk.
He did guarantee the $1000 would be returned to me. He was to provide instruction to me, which was mediocre at best, trade my money, double it and then return my principal back to me and he would keep what he made off of it. ... These were both in his "guaranteed" pools.
WOW. This is totally illegal... unless he's licensed to pool money, which I tend to doubt.
He used to have forms he made up on him "guaranteeing" the return of these funds which are inaccessible now but some of the victims have hard copies of them.
I'd love to see one of these forms.
Quite simply he needs to pay it back because he said he guaranteed he would, that's it.
Agreed, but this principal doesn't address the time line he might use or need to use to do so. That form probably does, though, right?
I'm kind of wondering what meets your definition of scam exactly?
Well, even according to the legal definition, "fraud" requires INTENT TO DEFRAUD.
Guaranteeing the return of funds, not doing so, and then moving on to collect more funds speaks of nothing but scam to me.
Not necessarily "scam," BUT yes to "stupidity," "arrogance," "incompetence!" One more thing I should say it is... but this does NOT mean it's an intentional fraud... By guaranteeing the return of funds, etc., etc., he acted UNETHICALLY and way outside "best practice." He's a marketer who seems to be all about self-promotion. He's obviously skilled in this area and would make a very good "team member" somewhere. Ideally, he'd have a legal/compliance department which would keep him (and his exuberance, salesmanship, etc.) in check and make sure he stays within the parameters of defined business ethics and best practice. Not to mention, ideally, he'd not have his daughter's BFF making bank runs, but would have an accounting department as well. LOL
I do not know your friend who had this problem. I would not want to smear someone who did not deserve it either. If this dude was honest about what was going on, things might be different, his stories are just complete BS and unbelievable.
Agreed.
The funds were guaranteed returned. If you can't guarantee the return when you say you will then you are a scam.
Nah. This is where I disagree. This is not what makes you a scam, as I've written above. It is enough to make someone suspect a scam, however, and dig in and do research (as you have done!). It's also enough for me to say "RUN! DON'T TRUST THIS GUY WITH YOUR MONEY! TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW!" (as you have done, and I will do.) It's not enough, though, to accuse someone of having the "intent to defraud."
Just to show you how this guy operates look here:
International Organization of Sales Trainers & Speakers » Danny E Wall
Like I said, he's a MASTER self-promoter. I'd hire him to sell vacuum cleaners, if that was my business. I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole, though, as a trader, trainer, or even as a referring agent for me.
Brendon Burchard Official Site
Let me know your thoughts. In addition the site on the first link iosts.org claims Brendon Burchard is the president of the company. I have contacted Brendon Burchard and he says he is not and has no idea who Danny Wall is.
Whoa... REALLY? How can he have the balls to actually feature someone like this as if he was a partner behind that person's back??? We live in the information age, after all. Anyone can find out anytime. This kinda shocks me.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate your feedback on this and I looked at your site and see you are a trader yourself. Any comments you have are appreciated.
Yeah, thanks. And again, I am NOT trying to defend this joker... and BTW... I watched a couple of his videos and I have to tell you that HE'S AN IDIOT. He doesn't really know what he's talking about. I am sure he knows more than the average Joe, but not anything close to close to close enough to be a teacher and trainer, especially for the money he requires of people for the service.
His take was mind-numbing on the new NFA regulation lowering the margin for US-based traders at US-based brokerage houses to 50:1. I am an aggressive trader and I almost never exceed 20:1 and usually stay within 5:1 limits. I also was upset about the new regulation because it takes away some elastic in the margin to guard against momentary spikes due to liquidity loss. That's all. HE, on the other hand, claims it's the "end of spot trading" and that the kinds of profits earned in the past are no longer possible, etc. What hogwash!
RUN!
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